Divine Enigma
At Divine Enigma, we're here to explore the wonders of neurodiversity amid busy corporate life and career dreams. Our platform is like a cosy sanctuary where everyone - whether you're a professional or an entrepreneur - can join in uplifting conversations. From simple tips for managing projects to self-care practices that work, we're all about helping you grow in your career journey. Picture us as your friendly guide through the twists and turns of corporate life, offering a holistic approach perfect for neurodiverse folks to not only get by but to truly shine in their careers.
Divine Enigma
Is it safe for Neurodiverse people to disclose? We discuss with Danielle Cudjoe-Mikowski
Unlock the secrets to creating a truly inclusive workplace in our latest episode with Danielle Cudjoe-Mikowski, a neurodiverse coach, speaker, and consultant with a remarkable career transition from pharma to entrepreneurship. Discover the untapped potential of neurodiverse individuals as Danielle shares her journey and the unique strengths they bring to various professional fields. From managing career pivots to leveraging their unique skill sets, this conversation is filled with practical advice and inspiring stories that highlight the evolving landscape of career trajectories.
Join us as we dive into Danielle's personal experience of preparing for a TEDx talk, and the complexities of navigating opportunities as a neurodiverse black woman. Hear firsthand about her surprising invitation to speak at a TEDx event in Romania, and the thought-provoking themes of imposter syndrome and intersectionality that accompanied her journey. We discuss the importance of curiosity, kindness, and clear communication in supporting neurodiverse employees and creating neuro-inclusive workplaces, while emphasizing the transformative power of understanding and empathy.
In our final segment, we tackle the tough topic of disclosing neurodiversity in the workplace. Drawing from Danielle's personal anecdotes, we explore the trauma and hesitation associated with revealing one's neurodiverse status and the critical need for supportive environments. As we discuss shifting work patterns, flexible schedules, and remote work, you'll learn how these changes cater to the needs of neurodiverse professionals. Plus, get insights into community programs designed to support neurodiverse project managers and professionals. Tune in for an episode packed with actionable insights and heartwarming stories that champion the cause of neurodiversity in the workplace.
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if we're putting something for, like you know, the whole 10, even 10 years, even my career, I think I'm probably the last of the dragons, I would say the last, last ones in the in the graveyard that are going to have a career.
Speaker 1:You're going to be 20 years in a row, I think people are going to move to different organizations, are people that are going to do different types of jobs in different sectors and, unfortunately, where we are now, we're in a very transition stage in terms of from a generational perspective, where we're not quite there yet. The. The people are ready to shift, but the organizations are still looking at have you been here for five years? Have you been in that role? How can you just come from that space into my space? Like they're still looking at that. We're neurodiverse individuals. We're ready to pivot. We're like I want to go. I was working cyber security, now I'm going to go and be an artist, then I'm going to go and work as a geneticist. I want to try it all. We're we're there and, unfortunately, the society that we're living in isn't quite there yet.
Speaker 2:Only if you're ready, ready, ready, ready, let's go. Hello and welcome to Divining Egmar, a podcast that talks about how to navigate through the complexities of the workplace as a modern day professional whilst simultaneously having a side hustle. We appreciate all of our audience members for taking some time out of their day to tune into another episode and look forward to providing you all with some value through our show today. My name is Sarah and I will be the host for this podcast. This podcast will be available on all platforms where you can find podcasts, including Spotify, amazon, apple Podcasts and also on YouTube. Now, before we dive in, I have a small favor to ask.
Speaker 2:Creating this podcast takes a lot of time and energy, and every bit of support helps me keep it going and growing. Support helps me keep it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, five star rate comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify can make a significant difference in helping new listeners discover us. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey. And if you're also watching on YouTube, hit the subscribe button and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. Want to show your appreciation more? You can even buy me a coffee through buy me a coffee page. It's a simple way to support the show directly and helps cover production costs. Together, we can build an incredible community for ambitious professionals like you. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Now let's get started. Hey Danielle, thank you for coming on to Divining ECMA today. Thank you so much for being here. I love the fact you've come onto this podcast. Do you mind introducing yourself to our audience members who are watching or listening to the podcast?
Speaker 1:And thank you so much for inviting me. So my name is Danielle Kajay-Mikowski. I am a neurodiverse coach, speaker and consultant. I just left a big career of 20 years in pharma as a microbiologist and a project manager and was setting up within that organization the Neurodiverse Network, and decided that I want to do more for the neurodiverse community. So I decided to leave and set up my own business.
Speaker 2:So how's that at the business?
Speaker 1:world now. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a transition. I was brought up in the corporate pharma world from a bench scientist of about 11 years and, being neurodiverse myself, really kind of not even paying any attention to any of that and then I was given support by a senior person of my lab to look at my strengths and to start looking at things I could do, and at that point I pivoted into project management, which I loved and I really enjoyed. I was definitely a people's project manager more than a technical one and I think the people's aspects really helped, like helped me understand the strengths I had and the empathy and reading people and all the things. I was very techie and logical, but the people size really came through in that role and then I decided that this is where I wanted to be.
Speaker 1:Also, if you work in pharma, it takes so long for it to go from molecule to product. I was getting impatient. I was like I need to see the roots of my labor and working in coaching and support others, you'd get to see people thrive um, maybe over a period of time, but a lot shorter than in pharma. So then yeah, I I was in that for about 20 years and then decided to take the lunch and move into the business world, which was beautiful, crazy, lovely, surprising all the amazing, wonderful things it could be, and, um, I'm really, really enjoying finding my way, starting off and looking at new challenges as a business person.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, so, as a business person and a neurodivergent coach, how has that kind of informed your experiences in terms of now specifically going into neurodiversity coaching? Because sometimes this is a neurodiversity podcast. Sometimes with neurodiversity people think, oh neurodiversity, but there's, it's a. There's so many different types of neurodiverse conditions, so you have someone who would be like an ADHD coach or dyslexia coach or a dyspraxia coach, for example. But why neurodiversity and covering all the different neurodiversity? Because some people who have autism, for example, may have different needs from someone who has ADHD. And again, with neurodiversity it's a mixed bag. Sometimes you get a bit of both.
Speaker 2:So in my case, I have ADHD and dys. With neurodiversity it's a mixed bag. Sometimes you get a bit of both. So in my case, I have ADHD and dyslexia. So it's a mixed bag for me. So my dyslexic brain stops me my process of thinking things. My ADHD mind gets me in hyper focus and I'm just like my brain can't stop thinking or I've got so many things going on in my mind and I can do a lot of different things. Like that's just how my brain is and people don't understand that you seem scattered, but like I can do so many different things because of my ADHD. So, um, yeah, what kind of informed you on to doing neurodiversity coaching rather than maybe specifically looking at one particular area of neurodiversity?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question and to be. When I actually went into my coaching qualification, I didn't want a niche. I kept on saying to people I don't want a niche. And before I was supporting some neurodiverse individuals, individuals with ADHD, dyslexia, but really focused on career progression because that was my knowledge of being stuck and then propelling my career, and I focused more on that and I kept on saying I don't want a niche. And then I started talking as a part of my, of my organization I worked with, I started connecting with the community like individuals like yourself, and I started getting pulled into conversations. And that's when I was like, oh, there's a need here. Um, and because I was getting certified as well, I was like there wasn't not.
Speaker 1:Not all neurodiverse coaches or ADHD coaches or dyslexic coaches were certified and I was like, well, why can't they have the same level of coaching as a CEO or executive coaching? And I wanted to level up, um, and then on that I, when I entered world, started entering the world of business. The question came up is you niche further, right, you go into ADHD coach and you go into dyslexic coach? And the people that were coming to me for support were holistically, as individuals, made up of so many different things. They weren't just ADHD or just autistic or just dyslexic. They had so many things that showed up for them and I'm very much an advocate of intersectionality as well. That has a massive impact on someone's experience. As someone who has hidden intersectionalities as well, I find it's really important and it does play as a coach. It does play a part of how you support someone on that journey. So I decided very intentionally which is benefiting me now very intentionally not to niche, because I was getting individuals coming up and if I said I was just an ADHD coach, I know if it was for me.
Speaker 1:Who has a, who believes they has ADHD traits hasn't been formally diagnosed but as having adhd, but diagnosed as having dyslexia, I might be well, that coach is not really for me. I'm not quite sure. And the approach as a coach really is, and this is what all coaching is. I know there are different avenues that people kind of bring um and it does have.
Speaker 1:It is very blended and slightly different for neurodiverse individuals, but it is really making sure that the person who's getting coached really understands it's a safe space for them and it's guided by them, so it's not guided by me. So, really and truthfully, their experience helps guide them and I'm on the way to try and probe a little deeper. Maybe we look at strategies, look at ways of approaching, and to try and probe a little deeper. Maybe we look at strategies, look at ways of approaching and that means that every aspect of them shows up in a session and I wanted to kind of minimize that down to a neurodiverse community because I felt that they needed the support to hold space, because not much places where they can hold space for themselves to think. But I didn't want to go niche any further than that. I was very intentional it's interesting.
Speaker 2:You talked about intersectionality. Um, how have you kind of like brought those kind elements of being neurodiverse with another sort of um, I guess, diverse groups? So, for example, being black and neurodiverse or having like um a hidden disability which I guess neurodiversity falls into hidden disability, but you might have um motor neuro disease or some kind of um disability or hidden um trait that comes with your neurodiversity. And then being a woman with a neurodiverse condition, those intersections, how do you kind of play play into those things that a lot of people don't tend to look into.
Speaker 1:They just see, oh, you're neurodiverse and this is a picture of what neurodiversity looks like exactly, it's a spectrum, yeah, and I think that's the thing we need to consider. And the reason why I decided to kind of leverage some of that is because I myself have health conditions and you can say, okay, you, you've got health conditions, everybody's got something. But actually those health conditions do impact how my neurodivergent traits show up for me. So if I'm in physical fatigue because I'm having a flare up and I'm very open about the things that are involved in me in terms of my health, then that impacts my mental fatigue. There are times when I'm on fire with my ADHD traits and I'm like, yeah, I want to get this done and my body just says no. And there's other times where my body's like, right, you can do this, you're, you're active, and my brain's like in procrastination, and so they do play a part and they work together and I think I'm I'm, I like having a nice solid word intersectionality for people who maybe want to understand the term.
Speaker 1:But I really think we need to start breaking down and showing people what that means.
Speaker 1:Like what does it mean to have a hidden physical disability or hidden condition, or maybe a visible disability, being black, being from the lgbt, lgbt plus community and be.
Speaker 1:You know, we need to show those things. And then, because people then feel like I'm not alone, it's another bit of I know when I was going through a point where I was going my food, my fertility journey which I'm quite vocal about and going through my health conditions, even if I put my neurodiverse side, and one of the things when I was looking at support groups was but I've got this extra thing so I can't go to that group, and I've got this other thing so I can't go to the other group. And it's that feeling of not belonging because you've got so many multiple things that are going on with you. And I think if you can open up those communities to say, look, we know there's other things shown up for you and we're still providing you a safe space, that means that you can find a safe space where you can talk about some other things that may impact your neurodiverse traits but not directly be the typical kind of challenge that other people have. I think it's important for us to have those conversations.
Speaker 2:I think it is definitely because sometimes we don't always see the impact of that intersection that affects your neurodiverse condition and how you turn up for yourself. Like you know me, being a black woman for a long time, I've had to mask the fact that I have neurodiverse conditions because I feel like it's another barrier that I have to face. I've kind of overcome that now but very early on in my career I had to be like okay, right when I found out I had a neurodiverse condition, I was ADHD and dyslexic. I was like, okay, so I'm a black woman with neurodiverse conditions, how am I going to navigate this corporate space and tell people about this? Are they going to judge me? Are they going to make think less of me? They already probably look at me physically and just think, oh gosh, why, like, we have to make a room for this person? Um, and I'm having to code switch, and it's even harder coding, code switching when you have a neurodiverse condition and trying to fit into that corporate space.
Speaker 2:So I totally understand that the intersection is so, so important, because what black people deal with is one aspect.
Speaker 2:But then when you're dealing on the layers of that and also within our own communities, I find that there's a lot of stigma around being, you know, neurodiverse like I come from an African home, you know, if you're not a doctor, lawyer or whatever, and you can't pass your exams and stuff, and being a black person, that that's another aspect you're dealing with as well and you can't pass your exams and stuff, and being a black person, that that's another aspect you're dealing with as well, and it can be quite a challenge. But, yeah, definitely, intersection is something certainly that we should continue to talk about and I will continue to talk about it, as I'm sure you will. Um, I know recent well, maybe not that recent, but you did a TED talk some time back. Um, do you want to talk about that? Because, yeah, um, I love the fact you're a TED talk, tedx speaker, and you can say that I'm a TEDx speaker and I'll get there one day but, yeah, yeah yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It was such a surprise and you know what, funny enough, this is what you think. You know, um, whatever you believe in, whether you're you're you're religious or cultural, spiritual, whatever it is right manifestation really happened. So about a year ago, I'd written in my phone I want to do a TEDx talk, and I think someone else who did a TEDx talk I can't remember who it was and I remember thinking I want to do a TEDx talk on this. I left it on my phone. I didn't think anything more of it. I wasn't striving to do a TEDx. My business was just I wanted to go out there and talk about the message, build up my coaching skills and build up my business foundations.
Speaker 1:And then, for a friend of a friend, um, who had done some speaking around, they invited me to come down. Um, and they were like it's so funny, this is when your neurodiverse brain kicks in. So they contacted me and said we would like you to do TEDx talk, we're inviting you. And I thought, thought that was me applying. So I kept on saying to them right, so I've done this, this and this. I need to bring this together. I'm gonna, um, give you a like, a proposal of what I'm gonna say and send my qualification qualifications in um, just thinking there's a list of people, surely? And the lady turned to me and goes, no, no, we've done our research already. We're inviting you now to come do you think that was imposter syndrome probably?
Speaker 1:it wasn't. I think it was imposter syndrome, but I think it was also again, being in the corporate environment we're not used to and this is where we talk, go back a little bit to intersectionality. Being a black woman particularly as well is that we're not used to given, just given those opportunities we always feel like we have to apply and strive for them. So the thought of someone actually coming and saying, no, we've done our research on you, what do you mean? You've researched me already and I've ticked boxes like what, and I haven't had to pitch anything, that was really weird for me initially, um, and then, I think, and then it was like, yeah, we want you to come and talk, and that was great, and doing it in Romania was even brilliant. I'm glad I didn't do it in the UK.
Speaker 1:In some respects, I wanted to go and talk about it in a country that was different to mine culturally. Um, there were some amazing questions that didn't get caught on the actual TEDx that came up from the audience around culture, uh, around communication, um, and being your diverse versus, you know, being in a eastern European culture, where they're quite direct, like we are in a black culture, yeah, and how's that show up and so many different questions that were amazing, um, but I was able to go there and and and meet some amazing TEDx speakers and just enjoy that experience and share around um, you know my journey, but also you know questioning, with curiosity and kindness, my lovely foundation of coaching. Where we we can, we can start from the real, pure beginning. We don't have to have all this technical, well built bells and whistles to support someone who's going, who's neurodiverse. I think sometimes them just being seen, heard and someone trying to understand in the basics is all is really what they want, and then we can build on those to find out what they need.
Speaker 1:And people underestimate communication as and making space for people was an important part. So, yeah, it was exciting. I think one of the things that was very interesting was I had to write a script and I'm dyslexic and my coach was absolutely fantastic and very, very, very patient. Um, and I had to try and read a script which I'm going to say right now, to be complete, transparent. This is a. This is a. This is a premiere for you guys is that I didn't read it exactly, because I just can't do scripts.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I said to my can't do scripts Um, but I was able to keep on point and keep on gist and be able to keep the flow going, um, as much as I could, Um. But yeah, it was very interesting way of doing it. That wasn't very neuro inclusive so I was like, oh, that doesn't really, I'm gonna have to work in a neurotypical format. Yeah, because that's how they kind of shoot it and how it needs to be um, which obviously I challenged. But yeah, it was. It worked out in the end. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you're the third person on my podcast as a TEDx talker, so that maybe I'm gonna get more TEDx, yeah we go definitely need more but, no, it's brilliant to know that and it's brilliant to have someone like that.
Speaker 2:You're the second neurodiverse person that's been on the podcast. That is a TEDx speaker, so, yeah, I'm really like I'm glad you're on here and we need this. Gives encouragement to other people who are neurodiverse that you can do these things. If you're ever feeling like you can't or you feel it's impossible, there's, there's this space, there's room for you to do these things, but sometimes, when it all is included in the um, the table or the conversation of having the opportunities that we want, um, I wanted to um shed some light on um, neuro-inclusive workplaces.
Speaker 2:Based on your experience as a consultant, if you're a employer, how can an employer make their workplace more neuro-inclusive? Because I think employers are doing it, but a lot of employers don't know how to do that and what is the best way to make it more neuro inclusive? Because, again, although neurodiversity is being spoken about more and more, people don't quite understand it and they don't quite understand how to make the workplace more neuro inclusive for employees. What kind of tips or um, yeah, ideas you would put into an environment maybe a much more or bigger organization, or even a small one, because sometimes smaller ones are not always equipped to always help neuro.
Speaker 1:You know neurodiverse staff, so yeah, I think it's an interesting one and it does depend on the size of the organization and for me, coming from a global organization with not just a global sites but also very specific country sites, that has been a challenge. And in a smaller organization, some organizations can actually implement a lot quicker because they've only got like maybe a couple of hundred staff and it's easier for them. The CEO knows them all, they've started and maybe a startup that's gradually gone. So it does depend on the size of the organization. I think having people come in and being aware of new diversity is great, but, like you said, it's the action behind it. How do you create it? And that's where a lot of organizations get stuck, and sometimes I say it's not necessarily just about creating, doing stuff, it's about creating that culture, because you can go and invest in all the technology, everything under the sun and say that's all available, but if someone who's neurodiverse in that your community or your organization doesn't feel like it's a safe space, they're not going to ask for anything, um, and so it's really important to be able to create that environment and safe space where they can actually put their hands up and say don't even have to disclose they're neurodiverse. I have a challenge and I need support. I mean, ideally, we want in our community, in the neurodiversity community and movement, more people to disclose and get diagnosis, because it gives us more data to be able to to innovate and create more things that can help support our community.
Speaker 1:However, I think sometimes companies get overwhelmed by all of that stuff. If I throw money at it, maybe that will sort itself out. That isn't the case. We need to look at things like how are we supporting managers, supporting their teams, how are we supporting teams around, how they can support each other? How are leaderships being advocates and showing up and putting resources to help those who are really striving to push this, this topic, in their organization? And bringing speakers in, bringing coaches and mentors in, you know, bringing um programs in together. That they can. They can learn from making sure leaders are held accountable and are um, you know, pledge they're going to do something about it, not just talk about it and tick a box on their resume.
Speaker 1:And I think, for for managers and line managers, they're the ones that get stuck in the middle because they're expecting to do something about it without much guidance and I think the most purist that you can do as someone who's brown we've been with different types of leaders across the organization I worked with is don't underestimate your leadership and coaching and mentoring skills. At day one, holding a space and being very open about that individual saying you've disclosed to me that is confidential, how can I best support you? Am I the right, best person to support you going forward? And if I am okay, what do you need? If you don't know what you need because some of us just don't know what we need and what's available let's take that journey together.
Speaker 1:That might look like me having more regular one-to-ones with you. It might be having coaching sessions, it might be you seeing someone external. It might be us having a talk with someone in our organisation around adjustment and support. These are things, but the manager being behind by the side of that person, or a manager or someone of that kind of level being with that person to say, number one, it's okay, it's valid, I'm here to help you and we're going to figure this out together. I mean, if you had had that, that's better than having all the technical technology, because you know that if your job changes or you go for different projects and things adapt in the workplace, if you have to change your equipment, you know that person or that, that that culture of an organization is always going to be there to support you and that will help you across your whole career journey, just in that one job or one role. I think people underestimate that.
Speaker 2:I think the the issue I think I find with large corporations, maybe small businesses and it depends on the kind of company you work with is that maybe they will say, okay, we want to help neurodiverse people from a sort of corporate perspective, but then if someone's not being taught as a manager how to manage a neurodiverse staff member, then it becomes a bit of an issue yeah and then they'll say well, that stuff I've tried with that staff member, but they're not.
Speaker 2:They're not learning well, as, have you tried to understand how they learn things? But that's the thing I think they need to understand.
Speaker 1:It's not about telling somebody what they need to do, it's about asking. This is why, really and truthfully, if you look at any management books or leadership books, they always talk about pure coaching questions. Because it's not about you, it's about the other person. If you're, if you're, leading and managing a team, it's not about your manager, you being a manager, it's about your team and therefore you have to question and understand your team, whether it's different dynamics, whether neurodiverse or neurotypical, whether they've got other intersectionalities understanding your team's important what's showing up for you. So the question is what do you need to do to be amazing at what you do? What? And then how can I help you as your manager to provide that? And if you don't know, again see it's the same questions asking before, but in a different way. But every man.
Speaker 1:I think what organizations don't do is put enough time and training into managers to be better managers, end of. If they're better managers, then they'll be able to support the experience of that individual. And the thing about it is they're not trained managers and usually just get promoted. They're not really trained into how to be managers. They're excellent as their technical skills, but not necessarily the people piece and I think when you're dealing with a group like neurodiverse individuals, where they can be other different challenges sharp than the normal ones that they've experienced, where there can be other different challenges show up than the normal ones that they've experienced, that's when they kind of try to put us in the same bracket and try and do the same fixes and it doesn't work and it's always.
Speaker 1:It's about understanding from their community what isn't working and trying to figure out how they can do it and be ready to to pivot from the typical training programs and things they roll out and look at different opportunities. Um, and there's loads of ways that large organizations could do that. A lot of it involves listening and reverse. You know, one of my organization did before I left was diverse reverse mentoring where someone junior who was from different intersectionality actually mentored someone senior and that was amazing. In our organization I've seen some organizations do that and it's really good.
Speaker 2:It does actually change the way you look at um how you interact with someone from a different pay grade or pay skill. I really do like that.
Speaker 1:Or different area, different area, yeah, and and that I had the opportunity in one of my sessions, um, to talk about university very, very much in my early stages and that then propelled her to make sure she brought that conversation up from her senior level, because she was like, oh, I didn't realize that was a word, I just knew they had individuals that had ADHD and dyslexia. I didn't realize there's a community. And then from that she then decided that on her own, independently, to raise and ask questions with her peers. So it works in two ways for me because, and the community because not only was the message getting out there, but also she was then able to look at how she was working, how she was supporting her team, and then take that into consideration.
Speaker 2:But it's slow what do you think are the misconceptions that people have about people that are neurodiverse that you've come across um that? You just people make these assumptions. I've got a few but like yeah um, there's, there's quite a few.
Speaker 1:They can't, they're not great leaders. Um, they can't finish tasks, they're not very good at like progressing things. They, you know, they're kind of like in their own little world. They can't be trained and developed, even though, surprisingly, a lot of neurodiverse people end up going into higher education because they're just like, this works well for me and I don't want to go into that working world where everything is crazy and doesn't make any sense. So you find that you get. You get, you know.
Speaker 1:There's individuals who are like serial educators. They'll do every course on the earth just to, kind of like, stay in that realm. Um, they're not empathetic, they can't socialize. Um, it can array. There's such a array of different responses that people have or assumptions. The one I really don't like is the leadership one. I really don't like them like saying, you know that that neurodiverse individuals can't lead and and can't do those kind of senior roles. Because I will challenge that all day, every day, because I think we have so much great natural traits and that's across the spectrum of neurodiverse individuals who can provide such great leadership and inspire teams.
Speaker 2:I've met a lot of great neurodiverse leads, so so I'm not sure where people have got the idea that neurodiverse people cannot lead, because there's quite a few out there and they're so empathetic so they pay so much close attention to detail, they look at how work dynamics are and they're deep thinkers and I find people don't tend to see that because they make the assumption they can't. Maybe the leadership looks different. Leadership looks different for different people. Yes, um, but yeah, we need to trash those ideas out. I think it's like you said, it's a traditional leadership versus.
Speaker 1:You know, a neurodiversity leader will look at different ways like go and look at their team and look at different ways of implementing something, where if someone's used to being led or seeing another leader who's leading in a very traditional way that we're used to, that's when you say, well, that's not going to work. They don't look at the outcome and the output and I think it's the output right. It's not necessarily the way we're always doing things. We can do things differently and have a good or even better output.
Speaker 2:I wanted to touch on people that are neurodiverse and looking to advance themselves in their careers. How would you advise someone who's neurodiverse to advance in their career so, for example, they might be working? I'm just picking something randomly. There's no price in this, but, like I'm a junior software developer, I want to become a senior developer. Um, how can I progress? What do I do? Will I have a neurodiverse condition? I don't know what to tell someone about it. What advice would you give that to?
Speaker 1:someone who wants to sort of advance in their career that could be quite, I understand could be quite tricky if someone's been in that situation and very delusioned, thinking that I just if I fix all my problems and I'll just automatically shine and then my career will go up, or even not even thinking about career progression at all. I think the most important thing is, if you're thinking about disclosing before we go into any of the detail if you're thinking about disclosing whether you're neurodiverse or not, think about what level of comfort, how comfortable you are with disclosing, to what level um. We know that you don't have to disclose that you're neurodiverse, um, and you can disclose in regards to specific challenges that you're having um. I think one of the things and I can only go from my lived experience that really propelled my career was um wasn't necessarily disclosing that I had dyslexia.
Speaker 1:I think even the lady that helped me didn't really know I had dyslexia at the time when she helped me, but it was disclosing some of the challenges I had um and working with a mentor was really, really useful because I was able to see where I could be um and even though I moved into a different field, I was still able to see that I could go into that and we spent a lot of time looking at strengths and being really strength focused and not so much looking at the challenges which neurodiverse individuals who I coach as clients generally focus on.
Speaker 1:90% of them it's all about the challenges and it's not about the strengths. And I know it's hard to see strengths and that's why I think it's good to have a support support to help you identify those strengths and actually name them and own them so that when you have opportunities you can have um you, you know where you, where your strengths lie, and you can say whether that's a project for you or isn't um. The second piece, that is, if in a corporate environment specifically as well, usually have set up is I always ask people when you see those senior leaders and CEOs, how do you think they get there?
Speaker 1:they have a team, they're never on their own except for that there's one person on their own, like I'm, ceo. They have a team, so you need to get your team together. So I had people that were in the role that I wanted to be, supporting me, giving me feedback, giving me advice about initiatives that I should get involved in Maybe it's a little side project that that software developers can get involved with and also getting feedback constantly, not just feedback about how I can improve, but feedback on what I've done well, so I can pocket that. So when I end up going to discussion with manager about promotion, I have an example in my back pocket to produce Having a sponsor and I'm looking because we both know Sarah, having a sponsor is a massive thing. However, I would say, just because you don't think you have a sponsor, if you are visible and I know a lot of new, diverse individuals are not visible or do not like to be visible in the workplace, and that's something that unfortunately, in the way that, especially corporate well set up, you need to be visible, but if you are, you'll be surprised that there are sponsors that look in the background.
Speaker 1:I had no idea I had a particular sponsor until I had a rant on a call about DE&I stuff. And then the person said can I have a call with you? Had a rant on a call about DE&I stuff and then the person said can I have a call with you? Had a call with them and I was like they were like and I was still in my fire and I was like, oh, I've been at this grade for X amount of years and I don't see progression and blah, blah, blah, and I've been into organisation 50. I know how you know it goes. And then they were like oh, I know about you and I've been watching you and I really really I loved this, you know great. But a part of me was like could you not have told me and particularly when you're diverse as well, I really, even if you gave me a side wink, I, I'm not gonna notice.
Speaker 2:We don't know the cues even I mean, I don't know how you are, but even after my 20 years there's still cues and you don't know stuff you don't know, I feel like, um, I, I think, I feel like I'm getting to the point where I feel rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, so I feel like everything I do is probably not quite good enough, or someone's over criticizing me. So I feel I have to work extra hard to try and prove, make a point, or prove a point, or, or, you know, and I'll overthink things to think that it's actually worse and when it comes, it's not even that bad, no, but like.
Speaker 1:But even if the person was to come and say I'm your mentor.
Speaker 1:Unless you sit down and say, danielle, I'm your mentor, this is what we're gonna do, I have no idea. So I think that's the thing is if you are, if those who are listening to this, who are sponsors and they're repping for someone and they could potentially be neurodiverse or have neurodiverse traits, let them know, because it's really difficult. But the hardest thing on all of this and a lot of people say, great, great, danielle, you've got your ideas, whatever I think the hardest part is actually the self-advocacy because, again, if you don't have the confidence to go and be visible to some extent and you can work with your peers and the mentor and stuff to understand what that looks like for you, because everybody's different if you've got someone who's quite introverted, that can be really challenging, but there's other ways you can showcase your work and be seen. Um, but if you can self-advocate for yourself, then that's probably the biggest bit, biggest hurdle and that's probably the hardest one as someone who is an introverted, extrovert, neurodiverse individual that the hardest.
Speaker 1:I had to put on that kind of alter ego of there's Danielle and then there's Danielle work and I had to use Danielle work sometimes and I was scared because then I would do all the analysing afterwards under Danielle but I had to use that work, danielle, because otherwise I just would just yeah, it's really difficult.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask you one question Do you think it's safe today for neurodiverse people to disclose their condition? Do you think it's safe? I also think about the intersectionality that comes with that For some people it's safe.
Speaker 1:For some people it is safe and for some people it's kind of they don't even think about safe, they just do. For some neurodiverse individuals they just do and they're unapologetic. I think, coming from a generation when I was education, we were told specifically because I found out in my final year, we were told specifically not to disclose. It was heavily advised when you go into your job not to disclose. That's crazy and they were. We're not talking that far. I'm not that old guys. So if you're going from that generation where you were told not to disclose, um at work, in a workplace, um, it's really hard. There's a lot of trauma around you know what that looks like, what you're telling me, because there's certain things I can't hide. Like you say, I can't. Can't hide that I'm black, I can't hide that I'm a woman. So then having to discuss another difference seems like another thing that I have to say. It seems like another kind of like reason for others, another reason or justification for doing something differently, and I think that could be really really challenging. I think like, like I always say, when you're talking about disclosure, it has to be the right level. It's comfortable. My manager at the time this obviously is not accepted, now came around and said to me within two weeks, we think you're dyslexic. And I actually, in all respect at that time, was so overwhelmed with doing all these kind of quality reports that I just turned around and said yes, because it was just a relief for me to be able to have my manager know that I was. We now know that that is not the way to approach the situation, but for me at that time it was like I then was creating a space where my manager and my supervisor at the time knew that I was dyslexic. Now they didn't know what it meant. I didn't even know what it meant, um, and all different things that show up. But it was something that was kind of like the elephant in the room was kind of discussed and then one of the next steps I took proactively with my manager was to keep on writing. Keep on because I focused on my challenges. It was always about the writing reports and and the time management and we really focused on that heavily in terms of my development, sometimes too much to the point where I was like this is coming up again as my development. It was on development last year, like can we have something new? There's loads of wonderful things I could do as well, but it was like it got to a point when that's when my that's when I changed careers. But it was like it got to a point when that's when I changed careers. But it was good to have that initially.
Speaker 1:But people can disclose, you know what level they need to. I think it's something they need support to figure out what's right for them. But going back to your question whether it's safe, I think it depends on the individual. What's showing up for them? If I was to go to an organisation now I'm not open about being neurodiverse, it's a bit late now. But if I was to go to an organisation and say, well, you can see, I'm black and female and I have a hidden disability, um, that's physically, impacts me physically and I'm neurodiverse and neurodiverse, it is a lot of boxes for organisations to think about um considering and that can be a challenge.
Speaker 2:But it's something that for me, I've accepted and worked through and I think it has to be an individual case I, I do know of people that are very high profile and they are neurodiverse, but they will never disclose it and they've told me that neurodiverse and that, yeah, and you know what, and that's why it goes back to you know when I was talking about the leaders, yeah, that they can't be leaders.
Speaker 1:And you said, oh, I know loads of people that are new leaders and neurodiverse. I tell you right now, I know loads of leaders who are probably neurodiverse. I watch and I'm like, but not, they don't disclose it like the reason why I actually one of the before the neurodiverse network was even created. I used to get involved in so many different other things and safety was one of them workplace safety in terms of, like the desk space and stuff like that. And I was at a call and I remember being the call and the gentleman came in, didn't say his name this is before we had the wonderful names up there. It might have been anonymous. I wasn't even looking and I said thank you to a department that was doing with a workplace adjustment service amazing, um guys doing work there globally and he was. He jumped on the call and he was like thank you so much for the support that you have in regards to my dyslexia.
Speaker 1:And I was like, wow. First of all, I was angry because, like, well, my organization knew I was dyslexic for the last 10 years and never told me anything about this. It was a new soft launch approach. So I was like, what does that mean? And why haven't I been the one in the box? Because I again, they knew what I was doing. And then who is this dude like he's? He was a senior, you could tell, he was a senior leader in the organization but didn't want to disclose and I was like, wow. So you can see that there is still that perception and stigma around it?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's still there and I think there's a lot of work to to kind of work on it, because people just have these assumptions and they still don't know the the positives and the the greatness that comes with being neurodiverse. Yes, we have shortcomings, but so the neurotypical people being neurodiverse? Yes, we have shortcomings, but so the neurotypical people. But it's just how we have to come around it and manage it in a different way. It's not about intelligence level or the ability, it's just the way your brain is wired and that's how I look at it really, and if you think about it for your leaders, you don't want them to be doing things the old way.
Speaker 1:You want them to come with new, innovative ways of getting around problems, so you want someone to do that, and I think that's where we're classed really good as leaders.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask you something. We kind of discussed this before the podcast and I wanted to ask you about how do you see the world of work in the next 10 years. And I kind of put my thoughts forward and I kind of think we're going to have a a form of portfolio career type of work in. Um, how do you think that would look like for neurodiverse people?
Speaker 1:because I think it could be a good thing, but like, yeah, let me hear what you think on that yeah, and yeah we just talked about before we came on and I think I was talking about how I see people that some people might like the traditional nine to five. Let's be honest, it gives you financial stability. There's a lot of benefits you can have from that and I think nowadays, from a financial aspect, everybody's pushing multiple streams of income, so people are always looking for extra ways that they can make themselves financially secure and I think that's going to impact the way we work. Also, coming from an organization that's global, my manager was based in Italy. Most of my peers in that team were based in Italy. I was the only one in the UK.
Speaker 1:So I think global working, working different times of the day and working from home, working at remote places like maybe, satellite offices I think that will change. But I think the way that people will be approaching work, particularly for neurodiverse individuals, I think it's kind of started. A lot of people that I know who've left a lot of corporate environments, who are neurodiverse, have either gone into business themselves or they've gone on to places where they can do small projects. Um, not even small projects, big projects, but a diversity of projects, because I think with our with us generally as a spectrum, we like diversity, we like change, we like difference, and so if we're putting something for, like you know, the whole 10, even 10 years, even my career, I think I'm probably the last of the dragons, I would say the last, last ones in the in the graveyard that are going to have a career.
Speaker 1:You're going to be 20 years in a row, I think people are going to move to different organizations, are people that are going to do different types of jobs in different sectors and, unfortunately, where we are now, we're in a very transition stage in terms of from a generational perspective, where we're not quite there yet. The. The people are ready to shift, but the organizations are still looking at have you been here for five years? Have you been in that role? How can you just come from that space into my space? Like they're still looking at that. We're neurodiverse individuals. We're ready to pivot. We're like I want to go.
Speaker 1:I was working in cyber security, now I'm going to go and be an artist, then I'm going to go and work as a geneticist. I want to try it all where we're there and unfortunately, the society that we're living in isn't quite there yet. But when I look at the young people who I love so much, especially the neuroiverse and I'm not talking about the children, I'm talking about, you know, the 20 plus Gen Zers oh my God, they inspire me anyway, because they sometimes are a bit more unapologetic. We talk about safety. They're kind of ready to aggravate the scene, and especially the neurodiverse individuals are ready to say you know what? I want to have this, I want to be able to work in this environment and this is how you get the best out of me as an employee on a project, or as an employee or as a freelance or whatever, and I just love that.
Speaker 1:The way they're kind of trying to do it, and I think the way they're trying to do it even the ones that aren't neurodiverse is a natural way that neurodiverse will bring their baby, to bring them their best selves to the workforce. Um, because I think we we need to have diversity. The one, the reason why I was in microbiology for so long was I had loads of multiple different projects. If I didn't, I would get bored. I think that's why I stayed.
Speaker 2:I think I think sometimes we, when I look at the world of work, you can't get everything from one employer. No, that's what I think it is, and this is why I kind of had a brief discussion with you, I. What I believe will happen is that you'll get certain good things from certain employers and from certain avenues of work. You might do so, for example, if I was a freelancer. I'm going back to software development, even though I'm not a software developer. But let's say you know you're a software developer. You might work for a big corp as a software developer, but you might have your own little freelance. You know projects that you're working on to help small to medium-sized businesses, um, and you get you get a buzz from that because you're helping a small business grow, but you get the same, I guess, um security from working from someone that is a lot larger and you know you have that stability and you might get all the perks that come with that big corporate. That could be. You know the, the pension plan, the 401k, shares in the company, whatever the company's offering. So you can't like. I feel like the reason why I believe world of work will change is because not one organisation can give you everything. And so the way a lot of people are working now and I feel that will be the movement is that, ok, I can get a little bit from this employer, I can get a little bit from my freelance job and I can get a little bit from this, and I know that I can manage my day accordingly and have variety in what I'm doing. And I think that I can manage my day accordingly and have variety in what I'm doing, and I think that's what is happening.
Speaker 2:And this is where the idea of portfolio career comes from, where you have, like, a career where you might do a bit of a nine to five, and it may vary from person to person.
Speaker 2:You might do a nine to five for six months and say drop that, I don't want to do that, I want to work for myself now and do that for another six months. Or I want to be a contractor and do that, um, and you get a little bit from everything. Well, as obviously traditionally it was, people either do the nine to fives or you would be that that, that CEO that managed a big company, or you had your own little small business, or whatever the case may be. So I feel that's that's what's how the world of work is. For some people it really is like that. But I feel more people will do that, because you can't get everything from one employer and I remember working for an organization where there were bits of the company I like, but then when I got a new manager I couldn't stand that manager that manager got on my nerves well, as the previous manager was really like cool and I like that person.
Speaker 2:So I feel like no organization can give you everything you need and that's, I think that's why people will move to that, because you can't get everything from one employer.
Speaker 1:It's just not possible. I don't want to add to that. Organizations need to stop trying to provide everything for everybody, because it's not possible. No, they need to get that out of their head. They're trying to provide everything. They need to be really authentic with what is their ethos, what they're trying to provide, what culture are they trying to provide, and stick to that and do that well, so trying to get all these benefits.
Speaker 1:Number two was as a coach. That's what I do, so I have my, my business, I do my associate coaching role and I have different faculties of my business as well. So I have diversity, and that is great.
Speaker 1:But one thing I would be very mindful about in the ways of working and going back to the neurodiverse community, is making sure you really prioritize your well-being, because doing a full-time job as someone who did it and then doing something on the side, it does take a lot of energy, and for us, energy is king, because it's not just, you know, the mental fatigue and stuff that shows up for us, and the over analyzing, the procrastination, even the hyper focus all of that can really drain us, of course, even if we're overly excited and energized.
Speaker 1:But so there has to be a balance and I think I would love to be able to have in my utopia would be exactly what you said a portfolio career where people aren't just managing their jobs and their projects but their time and managing that. And so if someone wants to work two o'clock in the morning to five o'clock in the morning, they can do that if that works for them. And I think you know that would be an amazing place for people to do, where we're innovating, we're collaborating, we're creating, but just all in different time zones, doing all different things and the best for us individually.
Speaker 2:We have to wrap up, but I just wanted to ask is there any advice or encouragement you would like to share with the audience members about how they can manage in neurodiverse conditions? And also, how do we find you, danielle, and how can we watch your amazing TED talk as well?
Speaker 1:so you can find me on places like LinkedIn, danielle Kajemikowski. Um, you can come to my Instagram where I have more for fun time, um, at thinking like coach, and in there's my link to all the links to my TEDx talk and get in contact with me. And I suppose the one advice I can give to neurodiverse individuals is take some time out, because one thing I love about coaching is holding space, and some clients just say we haven't really come for strategy, but you've just held space, but you can hold space for yourself. So just make some time to reflect on, okay, what are really challenging me, what are things I really like about myself, what things I enjoy and what things I don't enjoy. I have a free um mini energy kit as well.
Speaker 1:If you want some support to understand those questions and then you know, look at situations where you've done that and then that helps you as a basis to be able to know okay, these are things that shown up for me. I then might need support to get help with my next step, whether that's coaching or mentoring. I might need to talk to my peers. There's a lovely community here, but you can talk to other neurodiverse individuals, find out what they did get support, so you're not alone and there's a lovely neurodiverse community that we've got connections to as well. If we're not the right fit because everybody needs someone different and it's all about finding what is right for you and I think that then builds up the confidence and if we're talking about the workplace, just to round it up, that will give you the self-advocacy in the workplace thank you so much, danielle, for coming on.
Speaker 2:Divine enigma you've been such a gem and everything you have said. I've learned so much from it and I'm sure the audience members will do. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I just want to let our audience members know about the six week coaching program that I'll be offering for people who are neurodivergent and who want to improve their career prospects in general or those who want to get into project management. You can also be non-neurodivergent too.
Speaker 2:I mentioned this earlier in previous episodes, but I want to make the time to offer it up to those looking for help in those areas in their life, as it's a great way to learn new skills to help you advance in your career.
Speaker 2:I'm also offering my support to people who want to pass the PRINT2 practitioner exam or other project management exams, as I've taken and failed the test a few times and I would like to help others by showing them how I passed. I also launched my membership, neuro, in Egma, in which you get supportive community career and business mentorship, monthly group coaching calls, networking opportunities, mental health well-being days and unlimited body doubling sessions and UK and very soon international meetups. I'm also working with the British Dyslexic Association and Lexic, one of the UK's biggest neurodiversity organisations, to ensure our members get free full neurodiversity assessments, accredited with an educational psychologist or doctor. So if this sounds like you're interested to learn more, please reach out to me directly to talk more about the membership. Please follow me on all platforms where you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Divining Edmung and if you got to the end, this is a safe place for project managers, professionals, side hustlers and anybody who's looking to navigate the complexity of being neurodiverse in the workplace and the corporate space. I'll see you next time.
