Divine Enigma
At Divine Enigma, we're here to explore the wonders of neurodiversity amid busy corporate life and career dreams. Our platform is like a cosy sanctuary where everyone - whether you're a professional or an entrepreneur - can join in uplifting conversations. From simple tips for managing projects to self-care practices that work, we're all about helping you grow in your career journey. Picture us as your friendly guide through the twists and turns of corporate life, offering a holistic approach perfect for neurodiverse folks to not only get by but to truly shine in their careers.
Divine Enigma
Navigating Debt and Risk for Financial Success with Aila Money
Transform your financial life by understanding the emotional ties to money and their unique impact on neurodiverse individuals. This episode of Divine Enigma promises to equip you with insights from Nitika and Lis, co-founders of Aila Money, who transitioned from high-flying finance careers to launch a venture dedicated to financial empowerment and reducing stress among women. Learn why managing your finances is not just about numbers but also about understanding the psychological triggers that drive your spending habits.
Discover practical strategies to bridge the gender wealth gap and kickstart your journey towards financial independence. Nitika and Lis guide you through the essentials: creating an emergency fund, categorizing expenses, and making the most of your first paycheck. We'll discuss the psychological aspects of spending, such as justifying wants as needs, and ways to develop the financial discipline necessary to build a secure future. Their stories and tips highlight the importance of smart budgeting and investing, no matter your income level.
The complexities of debt management and risk tolerance are also in focus, offering you a balanced approach to paying off debt while saving and investing wisely. Whether you're a neurodivergent individual seeking to navigate these financial waters or an entrepreneur looking for supportive resources, our discussion will provide you with actionable advice. Additionally, learn about our NeuroEnigma Membership program, which offers career and business mentorship within a supportive community, ensuring you have the tools and encouragement needed for financial growth and stability. Tune in and take the first step towards mastering your finances today!
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most of the time we're going to be emotional and it's actually really interesting. So there is an emotional tie to money and, as you said, like putting it into example of the smoking, so money lights up the same part of your brain as smoking, as chocolate or a sex. It is a dopamine hit and actually for neurodiverse people especially, that dopamine hit is something people are chasing.
Speaker 3:Your dreams, your aspirations, the lifestyle that you want. Because we might not all have it perfectly planned out and we know that plans change and we understand that. But there is something we dream about in our future right, like we all have a sense of what we want that to look like.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to Divining Egmar, a podcast that talks about how to navigate through the complexities of the workplace as a modern day professional, the workplace as a modern day professional, whilst simultaneously having a side hustle. We appreciate all of our audience members for taking some time out of their day to tune into another episode and look forward to providing you all with some value through our show today. My name is Sarah and I will be the host for this podcast. This podcast will be available on all platforms where you can find podcasts, including Spotify, amazon, apple Podcasts, and we're also on YouTube. Now, before we dive in, I have a small favour to ask.
Speaker 2:Creating this podcast takes a lot of time and energy, and every bit of support helps me keep it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, five star rate comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify can make a significant difference in helping new listeners discover us. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey and if you're also watching on youtube, hit the subscribe button and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. Want to show your appreciation more? You can even buy me a coffee through buy me a coffee page. It's a simple way to support the show directly and helps cover production costs. Together, we can build an incredible community for ambitious professionals like you. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Now let's get started. Hello.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 2:Hi, welcome to Divine Enigma. Thank you guys. Do you want to introduce yourselves and tell us why you decided to come on this really cosy, interesting, neurodivergent podcast about neurodiversity in the workplace? And yeah, I'll give it to you. I'll look at you know, you guys told me this before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just so I will start firstly hi, I'm Latika. I'm co-founder of Isla Money. My background I've done more than 16 years in finance investment banking and hedge funds and I was sick of making rich people richer, and so I have then started doing a counselling course to try and help with this and actually noticed financial stress is one of the biggest stresses. This, combined with a passion that both Liz and I have for helping empower females, has been one of the reasons we have created Isla Money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm Liz. I also have about 15 years of experience in financial services, more on the life and pensions and the private banking side of things Then moved into strategy consulting before I also decided that I did not want to make the rich richer and cut costs and drive profits and do all that kind of good stuff. I then moved into more of the impact space so philanthropy, foundations and impact investing before then starting Isla. Isla is a personal trainer for your finances. We essentially are on a mission to close the gender wealth gap. There are over 160 years it's close to 170 years before the gender wealth gap is closed, right, and that's seven generations away. So that's not just our daughters, that's our granddaughters, our great granddaughters and many, many, many more generations to come if we don't do anything. So we've created.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love to try and fix that so you've created for people who may not understand finance and I remember before we got on the podcast, I told you a little bit of my like finance horror stories, like when I came out of living at home with my parents not knowing the first thing about even paying bills and stuff because everything was done. Does it help people like that, who are just completely clueless about how to manage finance and even get your salary? What do you do when you first get your first paycheck? What do you do? You know those kind of things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we look a lot in the current beta version that you're now, which essentially takes into consideration things like your budgets, so understanding not just what you're taking in, but where you're spending that money right and how you might want to think about spending it, how much you want to spend on your needs, ie the things that you have to pay your rent, your phone bills, your council tax, other tax, etc. Um, versus your wants, which is nice, things that we all have in our life and we all need to have in our life. But you know, that might be everything from a holiday to the coffee that we buy every morning, to I don't know the pair of shoes, to, you know, you name it, name it. We've all got these want expenses. So we do cover a lot around that as well as then some of the other financial basics in terms of savings, in terms of creating an emergency fund, which is essentially something that you put aside so that, when something unexpected happens, you have some leeway in your finances to essentially deal with that.
Speaker 2:I think you should dig deeper into what an emergency fund is, because some people think everything is an emergency, of course, and, um, I know, as a neurodivergent, I catastrophize everything. So everything is urgent, everything is an emergency. The world is going to crash down. I'm learning to get better.
Speaker 2:But how how can that work for somebody on that kind of spectrum in terms of how can I decipher what is an emergency and what is it, and how to be, I guess in a way, you kind of disciplined over your money and making sure that you are keeping money aside for yourself just in case anything happens. I guess maybe people call it a rainy day fund or whatever. Um, and also, how to kind of um, what do you when you get your first paycheck? What do you do with that money? Like I remember I went like just buy clothes.
Speaker 2:I didn't really think that deeply about what to do with the first paycheck I got and I think I kind of do remember saying, oh, um, it's quite cultural in my family that you have to give part of your money to your mum and dad because it's your first paycheck, and then obviously, from there I didn't kind of evolved about how to manage money. So what can you do for someone in that situation where they have no clue about money? Everything has more or less been covered. They come home, the food's in the fridge and now they have to manage a budget which I don't like the word budget, but yeah, how how can Isla Money do that for someone who has no clue what they're doing? Nikita, I'll ask you yeah.
Speaker 1:So I firstly I'd say, don't worry, this is actually something that everyone has felt financial education is really bad um, here in the UK and across the world.
Speaker 1:So you wouldn't be the only one that has come out of university being like I don't know how to manage a budget.
Speaker 1:And so actually, what we try and do at Isla is break down these things into steps to help people.
Speaker 1:So, going back to the initial question of actually how would you think about a emergency fund and how do you make sure not everything is an emergency?
Speaker 1:It's first we take it in steps to say actually what is your need expenditure and what is want. So firstly, it's trying to help you classify what is a want versus what is a need, which is all the emergencies should be in a need expenditure rather than a want. So even having that first level of categorization which you can have and we help give examples of those and then saying, okay, well, actually if you know you're more likely to catastrophize the theory is you should probably have between three to six months worth of expenses as a emergency fund or a rainy day fund and actually, if you know you're more likely to want to use that, maybe have six to nine months or six to 12 months, so you're building yourself a bigger buffer, just so you know how to look at it. Eventually, what we want when this is a full app version is to help do some of those classifications for you and actually then give you that feedback as to what is happening with your spending so can I like like kind of drop in there.
Speaker 2:So sometimes in your head you might think a one is I want to get that handbag, yeah. I'm not saying this, but I want to get that handbag because if I work, if I get that handbag, I will look a certain way so that I can be around these people because they'll like me. So that's a need in some. I'm not saying it is, but in your head you might, you can justify yeah how do you overcome those kind of things?
Speaker 2:because I know I don't want to generalize but I know, as women, sometimes we think, oh, I need to get that those pair of shoes, or I need to get that that dress because I need to go to this party or whatever it is. And you're saying it's a need and you, you calculate in your head, you justify it and say this is a need, this is a need, I need to do it, whereas the reality is have you actually paid your sexual bills? Or have you actually, you know, paid that phone bill that you've left for?
Speaker 3:yeah, you know, and I think you're hitting the nail on the head with that, right it's. It's looking at the whole piece. There is an amount of money that you get in at some point in the month assuming that you draw a salary, right, which is the majority of people and understanding and I'm going to make up some numbers If that is 2,500 pounds after tax and understanding, okay, out of those 2,500, I'm going to need X on my rent, whatever, let's make it 800, just to make it simple. I'm going to need 200 to cover my phone bill, the electricity bill, the water bill, you name it. Those are genuine needs, right?
Speaker 3:If you don't pay your rent or your mortgage, eventually somebody comes knocking. Nobody comes knocking if you don't wear that dress to the party, right, and I think it's about sort of knowing, as Nithika said, the categorization, but also looking at the piece holistically and going, okay, I've gotten rid of my, my genuine needs and now I have this room for, for my wants and and I might think of some of them as needs and and that's okay if, if your budget allows you to think of them as needs, yeah, and that's okay. You're making choices all the time about your money, right? And one of the things that we encourage people to really think about is if you are someone who tends to maybe overspend a bit or sort of spend and then go. Did I, did I really need that? You know, there's that twang of guilt or maybe a bit of like oh, I'm a bit ashamed or something is to go. One of the really easy tips is especially if it's online is leave it in your basket overnight.
Speaker 2:I do that.
Speaker 3:I set myself a 48 hour rule, yeah that, or literally have something that says if it's over a certain amount, right, so that. And that amount differs by person, so it might be 20 pounds for somebody and it might be 100 pounds for another person, but if it's over that amount, I have to, you know, step back and I have to take whatever 48 hours, or I have to go away, do the laundry gone, you know, sort of I wanted to ask as well about money.
Speaker 2:There's quite an emotional attachment when it comes to money, um, and, of course, in theory, yeah, I know I'm not supposed to spend money on a handbag and I need to pay my rent. We know that, obviously. But there are other um factors that are at play. So sometimes your environment and the things that you are around will make you want to do that because you want to fit into a certain set of friend groups or set of people that you feel that you want to impress. There's other things like, for example, years ago I used to work in the social housing sector and I used to deal with a lot of people that had a lot of debt, a lot of debt.
Speaker 2:And when you actually have these conversations with these people, a lot of the time they will prioritize their, their, their self, in terms of how I feel in that moment. I met one lady. You know she needs her cigarettes. She needs to smoke. It's not good for her health but she needs to have a cigarette and if that cigarette costs 50 pounds a pack, she will buy that because it's going to give her that stress release.
Speaker 2:Now, no judgment to the person, because you won't know what it's like when you're you really want to? You know you need to have that that edge off because you might not have a lot of money're you really want to? You know you need to have that that edge off because you might not have a lot of money anyway. You already see that you've got loads of debt. What's the point? Let me you know, I've even had situations where someone actually, um, when I called him, how are you going to pay your debt? I use that money to go on holiday to Spain. I'm like, how can you? But then I had to understand like they're probably looking at the debt, thinking they can never pay it off. Yeah, so I might as well, just you know, pretend it's not there and just you know, go away on holiday and just you know, not worry about it till I come back. And I'm not saying that people should do that.
Speaker 2:But you have to understand with money that a lot of emotions are attached and so when someone feels they can't have something and they feel that money is a blocker for them, they will want to take that, that chance to do whatever they can to to make them feel good. So when you buy a nice dress or buy a nice handbag or you go on a nice holiday, it makes you feel good. For that moment, you're not thinking about okay, I need to pay my rent and my bills, but that can wait, because I need to. I need to enjoy my life now. So how can you get, how can you get that balance, particularly with an app like yours, and that lifestyle of feeling that, oh, you know, I just want to have fun rather than doing the sensible thing? And you have to understand we're human beings.
Speaker 3:We're not always going to be sensible or perfect, and we're going to be emotional at times as well I would say most of the time we're going to be emotional
Speaker 1:and it's actually really interesting. So there is an emotional tie to money and, as you said, like putting it into example of the smoking, so money lights up the same part of your brain as smoking, as chocolate or a sex. It is a dopamine hit and actually for neurodiverse people especially, that dopamine hit is something people are chasing and this becomes a thing. So the short-term dopamine hit of buying something you want or having that cigarette is something that really becomes a focus point. But there are two parts of your brain that money is in, so that part lights up the dopamine centres. But it also lights up the part of your brain which is the same as a pen knife or a pocket knife, because money is a tool and we are trying to look at a person holistically in Isla and help bring around the long-term behavioral change.
Speaker 1:Because, yes, there is emotions with money, but your money habits and mindsets are also set by the age of seven, so it is really hard to change some of these things and so we want to try and help, and some of that is by through education or by setting realistic small goals for people to work on. But then the other side is people just need support at times, yeah, and it's. Then we have, we do the holistic view of actually let's calculate your cost of your life goals and give you really hyper personalized action plans and education, but we also couple it with human support. So that's human coaches and human advisors, and it's the coaches here, I think, when it's the money of emotion that can really help one trying to understand your relationship with money or with the society that's causing you to want to do this, but also to help hold you accountable in a way that maybe you know a notification on your app won't do so.
Speaker 3:The other thing, if I may, is that we and I think I've touched on this is to say we really look at your life goals right, your dreams, your aspirations, the lifestyle that you want, because we might not all have it perfectly planned out and we know that plans change and we understand that. But there is something we dream.
Speaker 3:We dream about in our future right, like we all have a sense of what we want that to look like, and and really where we try to bring in the emotion side, but also a bit of the behavioral science, is to say, if you understand what your goals and your dreams are, you're probably willing to make them come true Right, and not not at the cost of saying, oh, no, more gratification now, but but a sensible reminder to say you know, if you spend everything now, you aren't putting aside for for the life or the dreams that you're looking for. So it's finding that balance and continuously reminding people to say, hey, you, you've told us this is what you want to achieve. Right, how are you doing? How is that? Is that still where you want to get to? And and are you? Are the behaviors that you're, that you are experiencing and that you are essentially displaying around money, are they serving you to help you get there?
Speaker 1:I guess the other thing to add is and you know a lot of people do feel this desperation when it comes to money of I'm not going to get there anyway, so why, why try, why bother and and like? For that there is the element of actually being able to show how this is possible and how this can happen, because a lot of that comes from not feeling in control of your finances. If we are able to calculate the cost of your life goals and show you actually how you can get there and help you build that plan, so you feel more confident and in control that plan. So you feel more confident and in control, there is that element of the overwhelmness or helplessness goes away and you're more motivated because you have a plan that you can work towards, do you have to have a certain amount of income, because sometimes people well, I don't earn enough money, how am I going to ever save?
Speaker 2:you know, it doesn't seem possible.
Speaker 3:So so the the answer is is no, um, there is not a certain amount of income. What it is is about being smart, about understanding what you take in what you spend and making sure that, even if it's a tiny amount, you are setting that tiny amount away into something that is growing right. So, be that a high yield savings account, or actually be that in investing right, it does not have to be a large amount. There are platforms in the UK that let you start with one pound right. That's investing savings. Obviously you let you start with one pound right. That's investing savings. Obviously you can also start from one pound right. So that that's. I think that's an amount that most people could manage, even even on a low income. So so it's not about achieving a certain income before you can start this, the earlier you start.
Speaker 3:There's this fantastic story actually in a book called the psychology of money oh yeah, I love that. Yeah, exactly where there's a janitor that you know he's. He's been a janitor all his life, he's lived in the same house, etc. He has no, no family, so he's been a single man and he passes away and all of a sudden he donates millions of dollars. So this is a story from the US to the local community and the local charity. Because he, out of his janitor salary from day dot right from when he started working, squirreled some away, invested it and over time, there's this magical thing called compounding, which essentially means that you start investing and your investments grow, and it's almost like a snowball, if you want, of your money that starts to not roll down the mountain but, ideally, roll up the mountain as it grows. And that's exactly what happens.
Speaker 2:So if you're on a modest income let's say in the UK, for the average salary I think it's 35 or 30k or something- like that yeah, yeah, less than or 28k. So if I was someone who's on 28k, is it possible for me to to do that on that modest salary?
Speaker 1:most definitely. And I think there is a general rule that people can try and look at, which is the 50, 30, 20 rule, where 50 goes on your kind of your expenses that you have to do, then you have 30 which can go on your one expenditure and then 20 which you put into saving or investing, so your future. So if, whatever your numbers are and what you have left over or what you've got of your income, you can look at that and say, right, how can I put 20 of this away? And if to start with, 20 isn't even, it isn't viable, even five percent works and it's really just about starting and actually there is a dopamine hit of seeing that grow as well, and a big thing that I think we've sort of touched on throughout the conversation, but not named, is something called lifestyle creep Right.
Speaker 3:So for listeners who don't know what that is, as you're in, as you progress in your career, you move from salary A to salary B to salary C and you know, over time you start getting used to the fact that your paycheck gets bigger and you're like oh you know what, Even if it doesn't the society around you, right?
Speaker 3:In addition, exactly Right. So that's then the keeping up with the Joneses bit. But there's this moment of over time. Your lifestyle creeps and you're all of a sudden going wait a minute, but I used to only have whatever. I only ever used to spend a thousand pounds on my need expenses. All of a sudden, those need expenses have gone up to one five and my wants have gone up by way more. Right, and so I think that's where you have to go back and very consciously repeat the exercise of looking at your budget, of classifying, of reviewing things like your subscriptions, like your direct debits, etc. Just to make sure, are these still in line with?
Speaker 2:how does this sound to me? So you could be someone on 28k that is actually doing fine with your finances, and someone on 200k could probably have no money because they're just spending all their money correct and and that happens often.
Speaker 1:There are so many people who live paycheck to paycheck so, even though they are showing richness, they aren't growing wealth because they are spending all of their income every month, and that becomes a really, really big part of this kind of equation and that's something that you really have to look at. So for me, the idea of when I got pay rises, especially in my 20s, I would actually just siphon it away as if I didn't have it, and you know where you could. If you can do that, that's a great way to start, because you you don't miss it because you never had it before.
Speaker 3:I would say as a society and again I'm using ideas or inspiration here from the psychology of money it's really easy to emulate being rich, because being rich is showing that you have money right, that you and you might not even have that money because you might be taking debt in order credit cards, whatever payday loans in order to show that you are rich. Right, but we see it. It's very easy to see the handbag. It's very easy to see the pair of shoes. It's very easy to see the car, it's very easy to see the house. What you don't show is your wealth.
Speaker 1:Nobody walks around going check out my pension account awesome and actually that's the thing we're really bad about talking about money and what we're doing with money. So you'll see what I buy and actually you might even hear me go oh my god, look at my new coat or my new bag, but you won't hear oh my god, I've put into my ISA this week or I've put extra into my pension. It doesn't sound sexy, that's probably it doesn't sound like.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, I've got a new car, oh, let's come and see. And everyone goes look at my new car, yeah, but yeah, it doesn't sound. I guess it's interesting because I've been looking into things like lifestyle creep and it's very easy to fall into that, that category of that. Oh, I'm making a little bit more money, I've got a bit of a bonus, let me go. Yeah, let me go out and do stuff. But I think you have to.
Speaker 2:Really, I think I think some people who I guess and I don't want to generalize when you come from a lot of money, I find, and I I went into two modes of money. There was a point in my life where, because I started making money, I was afraid to spend money, so I would everything I had. I just tried to save it because I didn't want to buy extra stuff. I was just scared that the money would go away, so I would save. And then I got to this point where I had lots of money but I didn't know what to do with that money and then I was like, okay, maybe let me buy something for myself, but that probably came from a place of scarcity.
Speaker 2:And then I've gone through that mode of being really crazy with money and not spending my money very well because not really understanding how to spend money and not understanding finance properly. I now know better because I've had to learn from mistakes, but before I didn't understand that. So how can you get that balance of not being like I don't want to spend no money because I'm scared I'm going to lose it, to being the kind of person that, um, doesn't go crazy with money or just spend anyhow and not really think about what they're doing with their money, or even checking their finance or even checking their bank account? I mean, there was times I didn't even check my bank account, I just took my card out and spent, and it's only when the card didn't go through I was like, oh okay, this, I look right here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah um, so I think there's a few different things at play here.
Speaker 1:First is that scarcity mindset and some of your mindsets, as we said, were built at such an early age so even when you had money, you're like I can't use it. There is guilt around that. And you did well, because a lot of people struggle to move out of that into an abundance mindset. But then it sounded like you got to an abundance mindset and we're like okay, great, here I go, let's spend um. And so first that's a great hurdle to have got out of one and feel confident enough to be like no, I have money, I can use it. But then it's then just equipping yourself.
Speaker 1:And this is where we really at Isla, try and pivot this on your why, what is your goals, what are your life goals, and that will help almost guide you, like a north star, as to how you should be spending. And then it's about getting help, because you don't know how to use your money like most other people, because financial literacy isn't something we are taught at school. So it takes a lot of effort, energy and time to learn this alone, which is one of the key reasons we have set up Isla, because we know that this information isn't readily available and isn't available to everyone. The wealthy get it almost chucked at them. However, if you're not from a wealthy background which I wasn't and most people aren't it's really hard to learn this and you have to go out of your way to do so, so we want to make that easy.
Speaker 3:The one thing I would also say is it's it's okay to make small mistakes, right? I think we beat ourselves up over oh no, oh God, I made you know, I, I, I didn't pay my credit card on time. Learn from it. If you see that, if you see that payment come in and the interest there go, oh shit, I need to sit up. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to, but uh, but you know, I gotta make sure I set up that direct debit. Or if your first investment is one that actually you know what, it loses a bit of money. Hopefully you haven't bet the house on it. So so most the great thing about most things in our life is that we we're a beginner at something. We start small, right, your salary is much smaller at 20 than it is at 50 for most people.
Speaker 3:You also have a lot less responsibility at 20 versus at 50, typically right. Same with when you're starting to invest you start small and then you grow, et cetera, and so it's okay to sort of learn from the mistakes as you go. It's normal to make them, we all do and then it's about going okay, I've learned X. I need to therefore change Y, and let's accept that and move on.
Speaker 2:You mentioned investment. When I first heard the word investment investment and obviously this might sound a bit naive I thought I needed to have like thousands of pounds before I can invest. So I looked at it like this is not even for me, so let me forget it. How can you change that mindset for somebody who might be on that 28k or may see investment and just don't doesn't think it's for them and they feel like they can't invest? Or, if they do know to invest, feel like, oh, I don't, doesn't think it's for them and they feel like they can't invest. Or, if they do know to invest, feel like, oh, I don't understand this, it's like betting or I don't. I don't get that, because even myself I'm hearing things like ETFs and you know I don't really understand it all. Yeah, so how can I not help people kind of simplify that I know.
Speaker 2:So I was going to ask you about the app. Does it learn like behaviors, of how people use money and what kind of makes you stand, like stands out compared to other apps? Because I have, like I use Monzo, which is another one I use where I transfer some money to my Monzo and I have pockets in my Monzo as well, and one thing I didn't like what Monzo did. Actually it kind of called me out on what I was spending. That's another thing. But, like, how does your app kind of like stand out compared to the other financial apps that are out there as well? Yeah, so there's? Yeah, I'll ask yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's. We can edit this out.
Speaker 3:So I think that the way that we stand out is by by again looking at you as a person holistically, both your now and where you want to get to Right. So a lot of the other apps sort of go. I understand your now and I'm just going to teach you a bunch of stuff and hope that some of it sticks right when you don't know why you're learning something. Ie, it is not made relevant that you probably want to think about a lifetime ISA, for instance, because you are looking to put a deposit down on your first home because that is what you are trying to save up for like. Then you you sort of miss that because it passes you by, because it's not focused on your goals. So so we really connect all of the learnings back to your current numbers, your life goals, where you want to get to, so that you can get from where you are to where you need to get to. The other thing that makes us different is we are embedding that sort of behavioral science piece from day one. So in terms of how we communicate, how we break the information down, it's very bite-sized, the kind of you know. We try to anchor you in society so that you understand how you compare relative to our users, so that you also compare relative to the country that you're in, et cetera, so you can start to see how you're doing.
Speaker 3:And then the third piece is that we actually have both a digital component and a human component. Right, because we recognize finance is hard, right, and some people just need an app and they will be fine and that's awesome. Right, and go those people. Others will say actually, you know what. I really need to speak to a human now, because I just don't get it, or I just need someone to hold my hand, or I just need someone to hold me to account. That's totally fine, and you are not alone out there, right, that's totally fine. You are not alone out there, right. So we combine both that digital with the human in terms of coaches, but also then in terms of advisors. Right, there are certain moments in your life financially. We were talking about things like wills and power of attorneys earlier.
Speaker 3:You probably want to speak to a lawyer in those moments, right? So that's the sort of humans that we connect you with to support your digital experience and really help you achieve those goals.
Speaker 1:Don't know if you want to add anything so, yeah, I think the other part is a lot of the apps that we see at the moment are focusing on, say, budget or investing, and they teach you things. However, then don't do that step further of right. Let's actually walk you there. And at Isla, we're trying to really recognise the fact that there is an intention action gap as well, so people know that they need to do things, and finance is always one of those things that gets pushed further out the way, and so we are trying to make that part easier, like Liz said, with the behavioral science of actually giving you prompts and helping you stick to the actions you have set, because and making it easy by putting it all in one place, so if you need to speak to a human, it's all there, isla for everyone.
Speaker 2:What if you're in a position where you've just completely messed up your finances? You've got to the point where you have payday loans, you owe credit cards and you want to. You're at a place where maybe you were a bit reckless with your money, um, and you want to get out of that. Is there a way because to come out of that situation, if you wanted to, because you're now like, okay, like.
Speaker 2:I've messed up. I want to. I want to start again. Is it possible? Because sometimes when you're in that place space, you're like where do I go?
Speaker 1:yeah, so. So yes, it is always possible. So I think again, it's going back to that helping you feel in control of your finances and giving you those mini milestones that you have to reach. No one has messed up their finances to an infinite level. There is a way of taking control. Like it is harder, and obviously your main focus to start with would be to work through the debt, but then there is a way out of that, and actually it's about learning better techniques, and that's what we try and teach the techniques that you need to be in control in the future do you think it's better to save when you're in debt?
Speaker 2:it's an interesting, one interesting question. Or should you just focus on paying your debt?
Speaker 3:so it really depends on the kind of debt and you and your attitudes toward it, right? So let's take the example of a mortgage, right? Or a student loan those are some people call them good debt, right, they are essentially debt that you have taken on in order to buy yourself either an education, which will get you better income in the future, or a house, as in bricks and mortar that will at some point be yours, which you can then sell, and you hope that the property price goes up in the meantime. But you get the gist right. You consider it as a a good debt. Yeah, if, if that is what you have and that is the only debt you have, there is a choice that you need to make around. Am I just paying that down or am I also saving? And that is where your risk comes in. And you need to figure out for yourself and we go through the whole risk appetite piece in the app whether you are somebody who actually goes. You know what.
Speaker 3:I am so uncomfortable with that that I'm going to put all my money into trying to get rid of it, and only once I've done that will I start focusing on other things. But there are some people who do that. There are other people who go. Actually, you know what? I'm pretty confident that and it comes back to confidence and willingness to take risk to say I'm pretty confident that I'm going to be able to cover my mortgage, my student loans, because my income's pretty steady.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm unlikely to be made redundant and if I do, then I will find another job. Therefore, yeah, I'm going to not pay off everything as fast as I possibly can, but instead I'm going to not pay off everything as fast as I possibly can, but instead I'm going to take some of it and I'm going to invest it, or I'm going to save. Right, you need to figure out where you sit, I would argue. There's another kind of debt, which is the bad kind of debt, where you're probably going to want to think about how you to pay that down in order to not get into a downward spiral, which I think is quite, quite easy after a certain point so.
Speaker 1:So I think a lot of this actually comes down to the maths a bit. So, like you know, a credit card where you're spent, you're paying 19. If you look at that, versus, say, a savings account where you're getting 5% at the moment, there is an obvious decision and actually what we try and help you do is say, ok, what are those decisions that you need to make? There is a mathematical choice, and sometimes it's also as well as, like Liz says, your risk profile, but it's about challenging your current beliefs and do they stand? Um kind of true?
Speaker 1:So when we left university, I was in a very fortunate place of one. We left with a lot less debt than students are nowadays, exactly. But it was a financial crisis and the student loan interest rate was zero percent. I had so many friends who were like, oh you know, the rule is we have to pay this off. And I stood there and I was like but it's zero percent, why would I pay this off? And it's sometimes really understanding and challenging those stereotypes to say, okay, I have been taught this, or I've come from a family which believes all debt is bad yeah, which is what I that, which is why I was like that, because I don't want to get into debt.
Speaker 2:So for a long time I didn't even touch credit cards.
Speaker 1:And then I got into credit cards and then yeah, yeah, like my parents weren't even happy with the student loan, yeah, and, and the idea of like me taking a student loan to go to university was like oh, and it's like actually, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have had the earning potential after university. And so it's really about being able to challenge maybe some of the mindsets that either you've set for yourself or society has set to say do these still work now?
Speaker 2:so do you think it's a good thing to pay off your mortgage early, then, rather than invest, or do you think it's better to invest? Or it's depending on your circumstance, because some people are big advocates of, you know, clearing your mortgage early, making these overpayments so you don't have a mortgage to pay anymore and essentially be. There's a movement of I think it's fire, where people want to be financially free. Yeah, yeah, what are your thoughts on that? I can ask you, nikita, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So again, I think for me it really comes down to the maths and as well as your risk, risk tolerance. So are you paying down debt that's expensive or not? So I I was very fortunate. I got my mortgage three years ago when rates were at an all-time low, so my current mortgage is at 1.6%. Now should I be paying off that? Paying that off more at the moment, whereas if I keep it in even just a normal current account, I could be getting four to five percent. There is the maths that you do on this to say is that working better for me at the moment by doing this and I think at every point in time there is that view if I then put that money in an investment account? On average, typically, investing in the markets earns around 10% 11%.
Speaker 2:So there is an even bigger difference.
Speaker 1:So in my eyes, I'm comfortable enough with this debt that I'm not paying off a 1.5% mortgage and I'm happy to use that money to invest. Or you know what, if I had a lower risk tolerance, even just to keep in a savings account, what about yourself?
Speaker 3:in terms of so I grew up also thinking or being told debt isn't great. I think I mentioned a story where my my dad even wrote to the bank when, at 18, they said you may now get an overdraft, and he said no, no, she's only one day older. So I also grew up with that. But over time again I've learned the math and so, similarly, on a mortgage that I have, I am also now going. I'm not going to try and pay that down when it's the interest rate is in the one point something percent range and actually the markets and or savings accounts are just yielding more.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting one, because I've I've heard different things from that. But yeah, I think it depends on the, the goals and the, the and everyone's everyone is so different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said, if I had a lower risk tolerance and actually it is going to keep me anxious having a mortgage then maybe the math just doesn't math in the right way.
Speaker 3:Versus the sleep you lose, um, for having the mortgage I actually think you've touched on a really good point there. You should make money decisions that help you sleep at night. They should be reasonable and they should be consistent. They do not always need to maximize everything. They don't always need to be the ones that are going to get you the giant wins right, or you just need to be reasonable and consistent and in a place where you have peace of mind. But the one thing I'd say is you just need to be reasonable and consistent and in a place where you have peace of mind.
Speaker 1:But the one thing I'd say is you just have to make a decision which you've thought about, and it's that it's like if you take that choice and you know the difference in your mortgage rate versus your savings account and you still choose to pay off your mortgage, that is a decision you've made, knowing the information, and I think what people find it hard is actually just getting to that stage where they know and that's the sort of conversations we want people to have or be challenged so that they know actually am I making the right decision for me, because then actually you won't regret that decision.
Speaker 2:I had questions from the community. They came back to me because they knew you guys were coming on. I had questions from the community. They came back to me because they knew you guys were coming on. So one of the questions that came back was how can iLearn Money, support neurodivergent individuals manage their finance, such as budget and savings? We kind of covered that. But from a sort of neurodivergent perspective perhaps someone with ADHD or dyslexia, just understanding the small print and all those things that they send to you from the bank, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, being someone who is self-diagnosed but still on the journey of being diagnosed as adhd, um, I know I get overwhelmed a lot and, though our app isn't necessarily there to deal with new neurodivergence, what we are trying to deal with for everyone is the feeling of being overwhelmed with finance, because this is something wherever you are on a spectrum of kind of neurodiversity, a lot of people feel overwhelmed with finances. So we are setting up our app so that it is breaking it down into small, bite-sized chunks which you get to choose the pace. We are there to give you checklists, so to give you the dopamine hits along the way. We are trying to make it in an easy way to understand, so it's simple language. We are changing our kind of media style, so sometimes it's written, sometimes it's videos, so it works.
Speaker 1:Say, a dyslexic person that doesn't necessarily want to read everything, you get to hear it, you get to see someone talking at you, so we are trying to make that part incorporated. But then also have someone to hold you accountable, so you have the actions to say OK, well, I know I need to do this, but sometimes you need someone to follow up and to actually prod you at times, and we do that. And another key part is we're trying to make our app as easy and intuitive to use as possible.
Speaker 3:And the one thing I would add is also the coach right. So when a technology can't help you, there is a human, human and a human who's trained as a coach to talk to you at your pace, in your language, to help you with whatever problem you have there was one more question um which we we can't cover, but we'll try and cover it.
Speaker 2:but so some of the newer divergence that are in community, they're very much into business and finances and they were looking at how can they navigate finances in terms of a business owner and where they can get grants or, I don't know, vc rounds and things to potentially sponsor their projects and what they want to do. Because people talk about finance for maybe personal finance, which is a lot of personal finance out there, but how do you navigate business finance in that sense or being an entrepreneur? Yeah, so.
Speaker 3:So allow me to allow me to make do a small disclaimer here. This is the entrepreneurial journey is is ours, and what we've learned? It's not. It's not sort of the isla app, if you want. Um, taking a couple of those in turn, I think so. First of all, personal finances and business finances are like this they are intertwined and they are like I don't even know spaghetti bowl, right, um, especially when you're early on, because often you're bootstrapping and you're literally making decisions around. Am I taking this money to invest it in my business or am I taking this money to pay off that excess mortgage?
Speaker 2:or whatever.
Speaker 3:Go on a holiday, spend, spend on whatever. So, so you, those are sort of decisions that you have to start thinking about, and you have to start thinking about them almost before you start to start your business. One of the things that we've both thought about when we started to set up, or when we started to have conversations about, is have we got enough money to keep us going for at at least six to twelve months, so that we aren't dependent on an income right, so that we have the opportunity to give this a shot? Um, and we took some years to get there, right, like we have. We've had 15 years of career behind us, so it's, you know, we. That is. That is part of the.
Speaker 3:I guess the benefit of also having done it that way is that we do have some savings stashed up, that we have the freedom to do that, but I would encourage other entrepreneurs to do that. In terms of grants, um, what we've looked at is, uh, innovate uk. Right, that is a a really great source and a really great place to sort of turn to. They've got a good website, not entirely awesome to navigate, but hey-ho, there you go feedback.
Speaker 1:The forms are long, exactly.
Speaker 3:There is also European grants. There are also often it depends on what you're doing but industry specific grants, tech specific grants in the AI space that we've come across, women's specific grants, or BAE and neurodiverse grants exactly there are those grants available?
Speaker 1:I think in the funding space they are also trying to get people from all backgrounds in and they recognize not necessarily in the past all funding has gone to a diverse group of people like less than two percent to women, right, yeah, so uh yeah, yeah that does 50 of the population I would actually say this is one area where neurodiverse people probably have got a lot more funding a lot of neurodiverse people tend to be entrepreneurial so they because they can't work in the workplace they tend to I'm going to do this myself.
Speaker 2:And some of the well-known entrepreneurs like, yeah, I've done successful, like in the mask, and Richard Branson, dyslexic, um, autistic, and yeah, these incredibly well, so um, oh gosh. Um, we're running out of time, but yeah, let's um. In terms of, like, I'm going to ask you last couple of questions, go ahead. What are the latest developments, um, or features that users can expect from isla and also, in your opinion? In your opinion, um, what is the future of personal finance management and how does Isla Money fit into?
Speaker 1:that which one Okay?
Speaker 1:so yeah okay, so doing, should we do both? Okay so, in terms of the new features, so we are very excited. We have an MVP, which we have, which is a type form, and then a WhatsApp journey. We are hoping this. Well, we are definitely building the app and hoping to release it end of august. So watch this space, and then it will be available in the app store. Don't do it. And then, in terms of where personal finance is going, and what we're really excited about is that ai is coming in as well, as there are so much advancements in open banking, open finance, which allows us to hyper personalise the journey for people, and that's where we really feel we can add value by really helping it. Bring it back to you, rather than just learning and educating on fake numbers. It will be your numbers. We are, then, also working with the likes of LSE and City University to say, okay, how do people like hearing messages? And the way I learn is very different to the way, say, liz learns or you learn.
Speaker 2:I'm very visual so I have to look at things. Wait to stick in my head.
Speaker 3:Yeah she needs numbers, yeah, a graph and a table and I'm like it's so not sexy to have a graph and a table you know we need.
Speaker 1:We are able to now, with ai, bring that around to people in the way they want to see it, the way they want to learn, and I'm so excited about that because it can be personalized to your learning style not just your learning style, but also how you want to be spoken to, um, and how you might be feeling on a certain day or time or whatever.
Speaker 3:So there's so many things that really allow us in a much more connected world, right, and and I literally mean connected not just your bank accounts, but the ability to start to go, your Apple Watch telling you today you are experiencing more stress, right? Or I have a Fitbit, so, whatever, your heart rate is elevated. Why is that? You know to be able to sort of relate that back to to again, why you are, why you are spending in certain ways, why you are making certain decisions that potentially impact your money like the one that we've thought of, is your the hours you've slept.
Speaker 1:Now we already know and there's all a lot of like you know research out there hours you've slept like really impacts the food you eat the next day.
Speaker 1:Of course, it also impacts how you spend as well, and this isn't something that you're spending more on food, obviously as well as other things, and so this is the sort of things that we would then like to really preempt and prompt and be like hey, you've had a bad night's sleep. Just be careful with your finances. Today, you're more likely to go over budget guys, how can we find you?
Speaker 2:because I really want, I'm enjoying this conversation. I wish we could speak for hours, but time is so limited. But where can we find you? And, um, how? How can people get hold of the app or the beta version that you have now if they wanted to download it for themselves?
Speaker 3:yeah, so we are on Instagram, on Facebook and on LinkedIn, all at Aila Money. That's A-I-L-A Money. I'm sure you'll put it in the show notes as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes, yeah.
Speaker 3:We also have a website, ailamoneycom, and the beta version is on there right, so I would encourage everybody to go to check us out, follow us, try the beta and then, if you follow us, you'll find out when the app goes live.
Speaker 2:Yes, which I'm really excited, excited, thank you so much ladies, thank you so much, thank you so much for having us oh, you've been amazing and you've dropped so many gems like I'm going to start looking into these grants. There's so many things that you've given us, so thank you, and definitely so much value has come in from this conversation, so thank you so much, guys, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:I just want to let our audience members know about the six-week coaching program that I'll be offering for people who are neurodivergent and who want to improve their career prospects in general, or those who want to get into project management. You can also be non-neurodivergent too. I mentioned this earlier in previous episodes, but I want to make the time to offer it up to those looking for help in those areas in their life, as it's a great way to learn new skills to help you advance in your career. I'm also offering my support to people who want to pass the PRINT2 practitioner exam or other project management exams, as I've taken and failed the test a few times and I would like to help others by showing them how I passed. I also launched my membership Neuro in Egg Month, in which you get supportive community career and business mentorship, monthly group coaching calls, networking opportunities, mental health well-being days and unlimited body doubling sessions and UK and very soon international meetups.
Speaker 2:I'm also working with the British Dyslexic Association, analexic, one of the UK's biggest neurodiversity organisations, to ensure our members get free full neurodiversity assessments, accredited with an educational psychologist or doctor. So if this sounds like you're interested to learn more, please reach out to me directly to talk more about the membership. Please follow me on all platforms where you listen to podcasts thank you for listening to divining ed, mom, and if you got to the end, this is a safe place for project managers, professionals, side hustlers and anybody who's looking to navigate the complexity of being neurodiverse in the workplace and the corporate space. I'll see you next time.
