Transforming Workplaces Through Diverse Minds

Ever wonder how neurodivergent individuals navigate the complexities of the workplace? We sit down with Martin McKay, CEO and founder of Texthelp, who shares his personal journey of discovering dyslexia later in life and how it fueled his passion for developing assistive technology. Armed with personal experiences, Martin offers an eye-opening perspective on why so many entrepreneurs are neurodivergent, often thriving in environments that stray from traditional work settings. Plus, he treats us to a delightful anecdote about learning to fly, revealing the multifaceted nature of his life beyond professional accomplishments.

The episode highlights how assistive technology can be a game-changer for neurodivergent professionals, providing tools like text-to-speech and dictation software to improve productivity and focus. Martin breaks down the evolving workplace dynamics post-COVID, leading to a greater emphasis on flexible work environments that champion employee happiness. We also touch on the broader applications of these technologies, extending benefits to families and not just individual employees. Through a fascinating analogy with beehives, Martin illustrates how diverse teams, enriched by neurodiverse perspectives, can generate unique ideas and heightened innovation.

We also explore the future of work, contemplating the demise of the rigid nine-to-five schedule and the rise of flexible arrangements that allow for a balance between personal passions and professional duties. Martin shares candid insights into his own experiences with burnout and the necessity of sleep, reinforcing the shift toward valuing a holistic and balanced lifestyle. As the conversation unfolds, we delve into the importance of inclusive recruitment processes and the potential of AI to make workplaces more accommodating, ultimately advocating for a strength-based approach that celebrates the unique contributions of neurodivergent individuals.

Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Workplace as a Neurodivergent
• 6:28 Discovering Dyslexia Later in Life
• 13:03 Empowering Neurodivergent Professionals in the Workplace
• 23:25 Embracing Neurodiversity in the Workplace
• 36:10 Enhancing Workplace Inclusivity With Technology
• 42:22 The Future of Work and Sleep

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

So at a really young age I got kind of exposed to physical disabilities, communication disabilities and cognitive impairment, and that influenced me later on in life to make assistive technology. So I started out making software for people with stroke and motor neuron disease and eventually got into dyslexia. When I take my glasses off, right, if I take my glasses off, I can no longer work, I can't read anymore, I can't write anymore, and it's not to do with my intelligence, it's because these, like assistive tools I have, uh, you know, they help me to see and that helps me to read into right. We need to normalize. Employers need to just realize this is like you know, 79 of the population need these things and it's just normal. And we don't think it's weird if people have glasses, or we don't think it's weird if people have a hearing aid or a walking stick. So we should just, you know, not be embarrassed about it.

Speaker 2: 1:10

Hello and welcome to Divining Egmar, a podcast that talks about how to navigate through the complexities of the workplace as a modern day professional, whilst simultaneously having a side hustle. We appreciate all of our audience members for taking some time out of their day to tune into another episode and look forward to providing you all with some value through our show today. My name is Sarah and I will be the host for this podcast. This podcast will be available on all platforms where you can find podcasts, including Spotify, amazon, apple Podcasts, and we're also on YouTube. Now, before we dive in, I have a small favour to ask.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Creating this podcast takes a lot of time and energy, and every bit of support helps me keep it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, five star rate comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify can make a significant difference in helping new listeners discover us. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey and if you're also watching on YouTube, hit the subscribe button and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. Want to show your appreciation more? You can even buy me a coffee through buy me a coffee page. It's a simple way to support the show directly and helps cover production costs. Together, we can build an incredible community for ambitious professionals like you. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Now let's get started. Hi Martin, hi Hi.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Sarah, how are?

Speaker 2: 2:50

you, I'm fine, thanks. Thanks for coming on to my podcast, divine Enigma. I really appreciate this. It's always lovely to have, you know, new guests that come on to the podcast. I just wanted to ask how's your week been. It's a lovely Friday in London, where we are Normally. We have a bit, you know, messy weather. Sometimes it rains, sometimes it's sunny, we don't know. But yeah, like, how's your week been, martin?

Speaker 1: 3:16

I have been in London all week and the weather has been fantastic, but I flew home this morning and guess what? I'm back in Northern Ireland and it is really really wet. Yeah, super heavy rain, oh you must have brought the sunshine to. London. Yes, I certainly brought the rain home.

Speaker 2: 3:40

Oh, amazing. So you're based in Northern Ireland and I'm based in London, so I wanted to ask you what brought you on today's show. And also, could you also give us the audience member a little bit of an introduction about who you are, what you do and, yeah, maybe a fun fact about yourself. If you, you can, you don't have to yeah, yeah, okay, uh, okay.

Speaker 1: 4:04

So I am, uh. So I'm martin mckay, I'm the ceo and founder of a company called text help and we make software for people with dyslexia and adhd. And, uh, I'm I'm also dyslexic and my daughter's dyslexic and uh, yeah, so I just think, uh, you know, I really love what you do, I think it's great that your podcast is helping you know neurodiverse people and, uh, I just want to get a chance to get on here and have a chat with you oh my my, uh, my fun fact is, uh, I'm learning to fly.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Ooh, learning to fly, oh, okay, oh, that's interesting. Okay, that might be one of my bucket list things I might do before I turn 100 years old. So I wanted to talk to you about your personal journey and could you tell us your personal journey as a neurodivergent individual and how it shapes your professional path? The reason why I ask this question is because this podcast is mainly on people who are navigating the complexities of being neurodiverse in the workplace. A lot of the complexities surround whether you should, you know, tell people you're neurodivergent or not, and like how to talk to your employer about how to make those reasonable adjustments and various things like that. So I just wanted to get an idea, like from your own personal perspective, how I guess, how you discovered you were neurodivergent and how it kind of shaped your professional path. And, interestingly enough, you're an entrepreneur, which I tend to come across a lot of neurodivergent people who are entrepreneurs, which is quite interesting so yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:55

I'm in a, I'm in a whatsapp group with about 300 other CEOs in Ireland and we surveyed them and 40% are dyslexic, which is way above the normal population. So, yeah, I actually think that a lot of people who are dyslexic become entrepreneurs because they don't really fit in regular work, sometimes very well, or not work, that's. You know, if people don't kind of accommodate, accommodate it, um okay. So let me tell you my story. There's two pieces to this, though, because, um, my career, I've never been for a job interview, I just kind of dropped out of university and started the business. So I I should tell you the business piece first, because it's actually related to my neurodiversity.

Speaker 1: 6:45

So when I was really young, when I was 12, my dad had a stroke and it was a left brain stroke, so he lost the ability to use his right arm and right leg, lost the ability to speak and he acquired some cognitive impairment. So at a really young age I got kind of exposed to physical disabilities and communication disabilities and cognitive impairment, and that influenced me later on in life to make assistive technology. So I started out making software for people with stroke and motor neuron disease and eventually got into dyslexia. And we've been, we've helped millions of people with dyslexia since then. But when I was at school I mean I was quite bright at school and I actually enjoyed school I found maths and physics and chemistry, all the science stuff, I found it super easy, didn't really have to try very hard English, I had to work really hard. I just found it difficult. And French and Spanish complete disaster. I just couldn't do it at all. And I remember when I was 13 or 14, going to my English teacher and saying I think I'm dyslexic, do you think I'm dyslexic? And she was our form teacher so she could see the gradebook for all my subjects and she looked across the other subjects and she saw me doing the top of the class in maths and chemistry and stuff and she said no, no way, she just didn't. But you know, that was like 40 years ago and teachers didn't understand then. That it's. You know, I think at that time people associated dyslexia with uh kind of low intelligence, which it just it's been proven not to be the thing. And so I just thought, okay, I'm not dyslexic, I, you know, just have to work hard at this. So I just worked hard at it and uh, but I've always found some things really, really difficult and some things really really easy.

Speaker 1: 8:47

And then I grew up, got married, all this time building the business, and then we had a couple of kids and my daughter was at school and one of the teachers said I think your daughter might be dyslexic. And they did a little light assessment and they said no, you know, she's not. And then she you know, she had to work really hard at school. She found school really hard and, uh, but you know, she got to university and in university, in her first week one of her tutors said I am certain you're dyslexic, you should go and get assessed.

Speaker 1: 9:26

And she went and had a proper assessment, and you know, but with an educational psychologist, and they told her that yeah, you know, you're definitely dyslexic. And then that became a topic of conversation for us at home and we would talk about it around the dinner table and she would explain what it was like for her you know, trying to learn, trying to work at uni with dyslexia and every time she said something, I'm saying that is exactly what it was like for her. You know, trying to learn, trying to work at uni with dyslexia and every time she said something, I'm saying that is exactly what it is like for me. So I decided, as an adult, to go and get assessed, and uh, so then that's when I found out what age did you find out that you were dyslexic like you got officially diagnosed?

Speaker 1: 10:02

yeah, like 50. Wow, yeah, and you know, but the ironic thing is, by this stage, um, you know, we make software for dyslexic kids in school and dyslexic adults and work and we've had like 50 million kids in the us have used the software and, uh, I, you know, use it. But I just kind of use it because I find it useful to listen to things rather than read it, and um, but it turns out that, uh, turns out that I'm dyslexic. So there's no small amount of uh, of irony in that but that that is um.

Speaker 2: 10:36

That's interesting because I I find a lot of people who are neurodivergent tend to find out later in life. Um, you're not the oldest person. Actually, my mum found out that she had dyslexia and dyspraxia when she was 56 years old, like she officially got diagnosed that age, um, so it's not uncommon, I guess, to be late diagnosed. And also, I guess people were not very educated back then about what it meant to be neurodivergent or to have a learning difference, um, or learning difficulty, or however some people prefer it, or a hidden disability. I think a lot of people didn't really understand it and I guess with dyslexia, as we get to learn more about it, it's a lot more than just the ability to read and write.

Speaker 1: 11:24

There's a lot more to it than that yeah, I mean there's a lot of different, you know it's. You know there's kind of decoding text and, uh, turning text into science and remembering things. And you know, we're all, we're all a little bit different. Some people are better at some things than others and I, I think you know a really good way to think about it is that kind of spiky cognitive profile. So neurotypical people have got this sort of level of cognitive profile and you know if they are at the 80th percentile and you know if their IQ is at the 80th percentile, they will probably be at the 80th percentile for working memory and at the 80th percentile for verbal reasoning, at the 80th percentile for nonverbal reasoning. And neurodiverse people have this spiky profile and some things will be not good at. Some things will be really good at, and it's finding, you know, a job that matches your strength and finding a workplace that kind of accommodates the, the lower points so what I wanted to kind of ask you because you make a text, help um technology.

Speaker 2: 12:35

You make technology to help neurodivergent people what are the most common challenges that you find neurodivergent people tend to have in the workplace? I know I can talk about my own personal challenges. I think you're a divergent myself with ADHD and dyslexia um, but what are the more common challenges that you tend to find um? Yeah, in terms of the managing people's workloads.

Speaker 1: 12:58

I think, um, you know, it really depends because everyone's different. Some people just find reading tiresome or slow and for them, just giving them a way to listen to their text is, you know, that can be a huge breakthrough for them. For some people, you know, with ADHD, it's just like keeping on task. And these days, computers, there's so much stuff, kind of notifications popping up and distracting people, and so there's just some simple things that we do to declutter the screen and just keep that one thing on the screen and we even kind of block out the top and bottom of the screen. So you've just got like a stripe of text that you can focus on. Like a lot of dyslexic people have got short-term memory challenges and just keeping organized and remembering things. So, you know, get like task lists and reminders, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, there's lots and lots of different. I mean, everyone's different. Some people, you know, can read really well, but their spelling is a bit of a challenge. But there are lots of tools now to help with that sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 14:12

And this is kind of like, kind of moving on to the next part of the question is that how can text help technology assist neurodivergent professionals? And also, what impact have you seen it's made? Because obviously they're getting this assistive technology. How is it making their work life a?

Speaker 1: 14:30

bit better yeah, better yeah yeah, well, it's kind of just like. It's kind of just like I say, you know, if I nowadays in work, if you're sitting with headphones on, no one thinks it's weird, you know, because they think, oh, you might be on a zoom, or you know, and lots and lots of our users, rather than reading their emails or reading their you know documents, they just press play and listen to them. And that you know we're a conversational species and we're not all. You know. We're all pretty well.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Most people are pretty good at talking and dyslexic people are often better at talking and listening than reading and writing. So giving them a way to just press play and listen to their emails or listen to their documents, that's a useful. And we've got tools to allow them to dictate. So if they're not great at writing or slow at writing, you can just talk to a computer and it will type it all in for you. It'll type it all in for you and you know you can, even if there's like a document that you've got to read or an email that you've got to read, you can turn it into an MP3 file and, you know, save it to your podcast list to listen to later. There are lots and lots of like, lots of like, little tools to help. I think that decluttering the screen is a really useful tool I think more for ADHD people than for dyslexic people but it just reduces the cognitive load, reduces the number of distractions on the screen and it allows the person to just focus on one thing and stay focused on it.

Speaker 1: 16:03

There's a couple of other benefits as well If employers get this. One of the things that we're this is like we're really passionate about this because dyslexia and adhd are so heritable. If you're dyslexic, you're 50 likely to have a dyslexic child, depending on your ethnic background 40 to 60 percent. That was in um, the nature journal major. So, uh, if a, if a business gets our software for our employees, we also make it available to their family members, because there's like a 50 chance that they'll have a dyslexic kid, and so it's not just for the employees, it's kind of an employee family benefit as well that's actually quite amazing.

Speaker 2: 16:43

I like that um, there's something that kind of um poked into my mind and I'm just thinking about how things are changing. So I know, during the height of COVID, um, a lot of um people, a lot of us had to start working from home, like that's just how it was. And I found, as a neurodivergent person, that was actually a dream for me because for a long time I wanted to work from home, but I worked in a very difficult, you know, employer who didn't like us working from home and you know they just wanted to see us in the office. But for me, working from home and I can just get my work done from home and I can just get my work done.

Speaker 2: 17:27

Now, obviously, we're post-Covid and everything has more or less gone back to normal and more workplaces are now making mandatory return back to work. They're increasing the hours or days that you have to come to the office and I know for some neurodivergent it can be very impactful because you're having to maybe hot desk, which can be quite disruptive. Sometimes you can feel a bit embarrassed about the fact that, oh, I'm having to um, use um predictive text or or have stuff read to me whilst I'm in the office. You know it can feel like you know you can't. The offices are not exactly built neurodivergent, friendly and I wanted to kind of get your view on that because I find that when I speak to a lot of people within my community they're now finding I don't want to go back to the office. My manager's making me come back. I was happy working from home.

Speaker 1: 18:22

Yeah, I don't know, like I don't mind if people so I'm the CEO, so like I prefer people to be in the office, but I would prefer them to be happy and productive. And if they can be happier and productive at home, then I think it also depends on the type of work you're doing and what you're meant to be doing. If it's kind of heads down work and you're working on your own, it doesn't really matter if you're in the office or at home. But if it's heads up work and you're working with a team, I think people make more progress together, physically in the same room than on a Zoom. And then this thing I completely agree with you about one of the things that we're trying to do here whenever people use assistive tools, we want it to be really normal when I take my glasses off.

Speaker 1: 19:08

If I take my glasses off, I can no longer work, I can't read anymore, I can't write anymore, and it's not to do with my intelligence, it's because these assistive tools I have. They help me to see and that helps me to read and to write. We need to normalize. Employers need to just realize this is like you know, 79% of the population need these things and it's just normal, and we don't think it's weird if people have glasses, or we don't think it's weird if people have a hearing aid or a walking stick. So we should just, you know, not be embarrassed about it and just use it, and that's just that. I think, and you know, I do think that, um, I do think the world's changing, you know. I think, uh, you know, the perception of all that sort of stuff is getting a good bit more positive this is changing, but there's still, there's still a way to go.

Speaker 2: 20:02

I think, um and you'll be surprised, just because of the people I speak into in my community you know they, some of them, a lot of them, do do mask because they're afraid to tell the employer that they are neurodivergent. It doesn't mean that the workplaces are not changing and they're becoming more neurodivergent friendly, and I love that because it means that we'll get into a world that is neurodiversity is becoming more neurodivergent friendly, and I love that because it means that we'll get into a world that is neurodiversity is becoming more accepting. But there are still some places, even now, that just don't embrace people that are a bit different, you know, and it's hard yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 1: 20:40

And look, I can you know, even if, even if an organization publicly we support neurodivergent employees and we make assistive technology available for everyone, you don't have to put your hand up and disclose, it's there. Even in that scenario, people won't very often wouldn't even disclose to a teammate because they think that that's a career-limiting disclosure. If someone thinks they're dyslexic or ADHD, they'll not be good on a team project. I'm a CEO and I have built a company that makes software for dyslexic people. When I found out formally about it I was 50, pretty mature guy, and when I did a town hall and I told the company that I was dyslexic and I was okay about that, but when I told my investors, I was nervous about it. So I was a 50-year-old adult, I was nervous because I was thinking my goodness, are they going to think that I'm not a safe pair of hands, not a good company and not a good CEO to invest in? So yeah, I completely get that. It's very natural and normal for people to be concerned about disclosing, because I was concerned myself.

Speaker 1: 22:00

And as an adult, I kind of… yeah, totally scary, yeah, yeah, I was concerned with myself and as an adult I kind of, yeah, totally scary, yeah, yeah, and like it's true. But imagine if you're like a young person, like just out of university, just going into your first job, maybe, and, um, you know, uh, I would encourage people to, you know, be brave and disclose, but, um, I do realize it's not a comfortable or easy thing to do no, I totally it's.

Speaker 2: 22:21

It's one of those things because, um, if I've maybe even to my podcast before, but for me I know that there've been some workplaces that I've been comfortable disclosing my dyslexia and my ADHD, and some not so much, and I don't know and I try to gauge, like if I think that person is going to judge me, I might hold back a bit, just gauging on how they behave if they hear anything about neurodiversity or someone with a disability. So it is one of those things where you are trying to find your way or find if you fit into this organization with a hidden disability. I would say One of the things I wanted to ask is, in your view, one of the things I wanted?

Speaker 1: 23:08

to ask is in your view, how can embracing neurodiversity drive innovation and productivity in the workplace? So there's some research around this. Actually it's very good. So there was some research done by Cambridge University and they found that people with dyslexia and ADHD are much more likely to have novel ideas. And there's a really nice analogy with beehives.

Speaker 1: 23:28

So inside a beehive there are lots of different types of bees. You know there's a queen bee and there are worker bees and there are kind of bees that go off to get the pollen or the nectar rather. And in any beehive about 13% or 14% of the bees behave differently and they follow a different search pattern and they have an exploration bias and they go off and search for things and they find nectar that other bees wouldn't find because they search in a different way. Then they come back to the hive and they do off and search for things and they find nectar that other bees wouldn't find because they search in a different way. But then they come back to the hive and they do the little dance and that tells the other bees where the honey is and then where the nectar is and they all go and find it. And if you think about, you know a team of people. If you've got 10 people and you've got a dyslexic person in that team and a person with adhd in that team, and you know, get other kind of regular folk, that team is much more likely to have novel ideas and, with a kind of broad team, also much more likely to execute them and, you know, get them delivered. Uh, so that is how you know. Uh, I think it's really important to get it in a team setting. But you know, dyslexic people and people with ADHD do think differently and they'll bring a different perspective and they'll come up with more novel ideas. And I think also they get in the workplace.

Speaker 1: 24:48

If you're, if you're in a business, if you're a business owner and you're delivering a product or service and you're not thinking about people with dyslexia and adhd and neurodiverse people in your product design and in your product delivery, you are probably excluding yourself from a portion of the market. So you should get dyslexic and neurodiverse people involved in building and making and delivering your products so that you accurately so you build a product for the whole market. I think that's a really important thing for employers and business owners to understand. I'm investing in a business in Ireland and it's brilliant. What do you hear this? So someone did some research in this and they were looking at online stores, so you know, like Amazon and eBay and so on, and they did an experiment and they got the product descriptions and they used AI to rewrite the product descriptions to be dyslexia-friendly, kind of neurodiverse-friendly, low cognitive load, just easy to read and easy to understand. No fancy words, just simple. Guess what Sales went up Like a lot.

Speaker 2: 26:07

Because they just changed the way.

Speaker 1: 26:09

Yeah, they just made it easier to understand. So there's like a business benefit in making stuff easy to understand and easy for dyslexia.

Speaker 2: 26:17

If you make it easy for dyslexic people, you make it easy for everyone and it just makes stuff easier to consume, easier to interact with and uh, and that's good for business it's interesting that you're saying that, because sometimes I feel like and this is sometimes maybe this is something I've created in my head, I don't know but like sometimes I feel like if you tell someone that someone is dyslexic or has like some form of neurodivergent condition, automatically I feel in that person's mind that person is like an inconvenience.

Speaker 2: 26:48

They're just going to cause havoc rather than seeing that person as somebody that can bring value to the team, and that's I love the fact that you had that. You've told me that story, that you know the fact that you've made something that is neurodivergent, friendly for dyslexic people, that they can use it, um, and also anyone else who's not even dyslexic can understand. It goes to show that actually being a dyslexic in a workplace doesn't mean you're an inconvenience or you're somebody who is going to cause an issue. You're actually going to bring something oh yeah to the environment.

Speaker 2: 27:25

And I think another thing that's really key is that everyone is um, because everyone is um different and we come with our strengths and our weaknesses and sometimes, if we focus so much on someone's weakness and not what they can bring to the, the team or to an office or to a workplace, you lose the, the value, you lose the intricacies and the interest in that workplace. Diversity is so important in the workplace because it makes the workplace a lot more interesting. Number one, number two you get much more unique ideas and you have a different viewpoint of seeing things. But it's not always like oh, this person is going to be difficult, because I always believe that if you're employing people generally, you're employing them not only for what they're good at, but you're also employing people and their mistakes as well, because you want to build people up to be better each time. So you might have a junior person that starts in the team. They might not be that experienced, they might make a few mistakes here and there, but the more they do the job and the more they begin to find their feet, you're investing in them as an individual, for them to grow.

Speaker 2: 28:36

And I believe that with just any business, when you start a business, you'll make a lot of mistakes. At the start, you won't make the right decisions, but as the business grows, you I guess you reiterate, you change, you keep things in, you scrap things out and you just keep improving, and I think that's how we should see people, like people are not finished products. We're always trying to improve ourselves and get better, and that's no different from someone who's neurodiverse to someone who's neurotypical. We don't just that's who you are and you're that kind of person. I feel like you can't do anything else, and I think that's the problem when you label people and just see them one way rather than seeing them as a whole. I think yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:14

I completely agree that kind of strength-based, taking a strength-based view of someone at. You know, at the outset. You know, whenever I think about people that I know who have adhd, they're like super high energy, you know, and uh that you know it's, and they're often uh great fun to be around. Yeah, I can just tell like adhd people, well, I'm like a mile away and they're usually really good fun to be around you. You know, usually really high energy. Dyslexic people are often really creative. You see a ton of people with dyslexia in advertising agencies and in architecture and in music. You know, and you know we typically don't hire people for their spelling. You know we hire them for the quality of their thought. You know we hire them for the quality of their thought and that's something that you know. Dyslexic people can really bring value to the workplace and society in general.

Speaker 2: 30:12

I just wanted to think about. I have dyslexia and so do you. What are the best traits of your dyslexia and what are the worst? I'll go first. Yeah, go, go. So my best traits of my dyslexia is the fact that I am highly creative and actually anything I visualize I can actually physically see in my mind, like I literally see it as this is what's going to happen. My worst trait of being dyslexic is that I can't express my thoughts, so I have to say everything, hence, probably, why I have a podcast, so like I could only express everything by saying it. If you ask me to write down what I'm thinking, I can't do it, so I have to just speak it out and get it out, otherwise I'll just forget it. So that's my ADHD fighting with the dyslexia. But yeah, what about you?

Speaker 1: 31:00

I think possibly some similar things. I'm good at visualizing things, really good at understanding relationships and data and that sort of thing. I find all that stuff just intuitive and simple and easy. I can kind of visualize how databases join together and how you can get information out and how you can do good things with it. I think that I am a really crappy speller and if it wasn't for, like, I've got this thing that automatically corrects all my spellings wherever I am and my spelling is not very good and my short-term memory is not very good, I keep, I bring, carry a book with me everywhere and um kind of jot down, like I keep my task list.

Speaker 2: 31:48

I have a. I have an orange book that I carry with me, so when I write something, even if it doesn't, even if it doesn't make sense, I understand it oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:59

So I've yeah, I go through one of these every couple of months and I actually keep them all. It's a good thing.

Speaker 2: 32:08

I think I need to find a way to be a lot more chaotic with my thoughts. So I might start using your assistive technology, because I have two neurodiverse conditions. It's really weird. My ADHD would turn up and it will help me hyper focus and I'll be on the task for like six number of tasks for like six hours and not feel tired until later on. I procrastinate for the next three days or something, but then my dyslexia kicks in where I can't process my thoughts. So it's like I've got two um people in my head. I know it sounds really crazy, but I've got two people fighting with themselves who wants to turn?

Speaker 1: 32:47

up today my dyslexia or my ADHD yeah, but you know it's like super common dyslexia is co-diagnosed with ADHD, I think 30% of the time. It's like it's very, very common to have both dyslexia and ADHD, but I think also people don't get that. It's really good that you have this podcast because there's a need for the public to learn about ADHD. There's a perception that people with ADHD are scatty and easy to distract and not serious people. But people with adhd can hyper focus and if they, you know, if you get them something that they're truly interested in, they will hyper focus on a way that, in a way that other people uh, can't and uh. That is a real strength and people need to understand that. That's the case and usually, if they're being, if they're being, distracted, they are not being engaged by their work, they're not doing something that is interesting, and that's that. That's when people are distractible what about this term superpower?

Speaker 2: 33:55

I have a love hate relationship yeah, I yeah I like it because it makes my, it makes me not discredit my neurodivergent condition, but I hate it at the same time because when I can't do anything and I'm struggling, I don't feel like I have a superpower, I just feel like I'm completely useless and I can't do anything. So it's one of those that term kind of like- I agree, I don't really like the term.

Speaker 1: 34:22

I mean, you know what? I think you and I are on the same page in this. I like it because it is saying something positive about neurodiversity, and neurodiverse people have lots and lots of positive attributes and strengths. I do think it overstates it a little bit and, you know, sometimes it's just really hard to do stuff. Some pieces of my work, you know, I just have a lot of text to read and I don't feel like I've got the superpower. You know, when I'm, you know, you know I listen to it a lot, but I certainly don't feel like I've got a superpower whenever I'm looking at, you know, 200 pages of content that I've got to consume.

Speaker 2: 35:01

No, you don't. You just feel like, how am I going to start this? Can my brain absorb this information?

Speaker 1: 35:08

Well, you just need to find a way to get it to absorb it. I just listen to it. If you listen to it, it's fine.

Speaker 2: 35:13

What I wanted to ask as well what practical steps can employers take to create a more inclusive environment for new and diverse employees?

Speaker 1: 35:23

Yeah. So that's a really good question and it's an important question, so I think it has got to start well. First of all, employers and people teams need to realize that you know, a percentage of the population is dyslexic or has ADHD. One of the things I often say is there are more dyslexic people than people with blue eyes. So if you walk around the workplace and you see a blue eyed person somewhere else, there's a dyslexic person and they're everywhere. Right, there's just a lot of them, and a lot of them are masking and they are probably underemployed, not doing as good a job as they could do if they were supported. And it would be like me coming to work without my glasses on. I would not be as productive, definitely not. When I put my glasses on, I can do a better job.

Speaker 1: 36:10

So I think making some assistive tools available to staff is a really good thing to do. I think it starts out at recruitment, though. You know, during the recruitment process you've got to have a neurodiverse, friendly recruitment process. If there are application forms, they should be accessible. People should be able to use text-to-speech. We actually make our software free for 30 days, so any employer can link to our software on their recruitment website and anyone can download it and try it and use it for free during the recruitment process and then, I think, inside the workplace, it's just really important to have awareness and training for all staff, just so that, uh, you know, they're aware if you have a neurodiverse person on your team, uh, here's how to, here's you know what to look out for and some some things that you can do to, you know, to help um. Yeah, so, lots and lots, I think. We've actually on our website, we've got a couple of um. We've our chief people officer has done a like a podcast about that um, which we should maybe link to. It would be good.

Speaker 2: 37:25

If you give me the link, I can share it in the show notes definitely.

Speaker 1: 37:29

Yeah, cool.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Just wanted to ask. There's something that kind of popped in my mind and I was thinking about the use of AI and being neurodivergent. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 37:46

I'm really excited about it. I think it's great. You know AI is really good at you know writing, but sometimes it hallucinates and people are worried about it. But one of the things that it is really good at is, if you give it a big piece of text, it can simplify it and summarize it and reduce the cognitive load. And I think, for people who have to consume a lot of text, getting a simple summary using AI to get a simple summary just makes it easier to consume text. That's a really good example. Example, when our software is being used in schools, lots of dyslexic kids encounter a word for the first time and then they need a dictionary definition to understand what it means. Dictionary definitions often aren't very easy to, so we've used AI to write dyslexia friendly dictionary definitions so that you know and yeah, so there's lots and lots of opportunities for it. I'm very excited about it.

Speaker 2: 38:53

I wish I had your company when I was growing up.

Speaker 1: 38:55

honestly, Well, I said, you know anyone who meets me socially, Anyone who meets me socially gets my stuff when I was a teenager or a kid.

Speaker 2: 39:05

If that was all available, I think my schooling experience would have been a lot different, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Do you know? There's a school trust in Scotland now that just give our software to every kid and they've actually teached the class. Everyone's different. Everyone learns differently. Some people might need text-to-speech, some people, if they use this predictive text, it'll help them to write, and they just don't distinguish between people who have dyslexia or not. They just say here are these tools, you know everyone uses them and that is kind of creating a culture of inclusion in the school and I think if we had that sort of thing going on in the workplace, it would be a better place. And what do you say to? We had that sort of thing going on in the workplace, it would be a better place.

Speaker 2: 39:45

And what do you say to workplaces that kind of post, the fact that they are disabled friendly, they are neurodivergent friendly. But the problem is is when you get there, say, for example, you're a neurodivergent employee but you have a manager that doesn't know how to manage your neurodiverse conditions. And that's what I find a lot of the time with employers they champion neurodiversity. When they actually come to it at the granular level. They're kind of like my manager is not really being very supportive right now.

Speaker 1: 40:19

Yeah, so do you know what that's a training thing? You know, the people teams in those big organizations or middle sized organizations need to make sure that there is easy to consume training on how to manage people with neurodiverse conditions, and it shouldn't take a lot of time, you know, like an hour, like lunch, and learn training course. It's getting people to actually attend the training and listen. Um, because that that's really all that's needed, just some training.

Speaker 2: 40:49

Professional development and you kind of touched on this kind of a little bit. But what do you see the future of the workplace and neurodiversity being part of that new force of workplace?

Speaker 2: 41:01

because I feel workplaces are changing over time yeah, I don't think we're going to have the normal nine to five in the next five to ten years, um, and I think things are going to change and I'm just wondering what, in your perception, how the neurodivergent um individual will fit into that, because I have my own views on that, but yeah, I'm kind of keen to hear your views, but I think that, uh, first of all, I think you know young people who have got dyslexia or ADHD are, or are on the autism spectrum, much more likely to talk about it now than they would have been, you know, uh, 20 years ago.

Speaker 1: 41:38

and I actually think that you know unemployment is, you know, it's very low. Uh, if people want to find, if people want to work now, they can generally, you know, they can generally find a job, um, and it's getting to the stage where employers are having to compete to to get employees in, and I think employers who don't do a good job of supporting neurodiverse people are going to miss out. And so that's the, that's the, the kind of first thing I don't know about the nine to five thing. Talk to me about that. What is? What are your? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 42:12

So I feel this is this is just my view and I'm not an expert on this but I feel that there isn't going to be a nine to five anymore as such. I feel that people are going to have a varied way of working. So you may be someone who's self-employed and you spend like maybe one day a week doing something here and then maybe spend two days a week doing this. That could be a side project or a business, and you're going to have a much more holistic approach to work because they're reducing the amount of time people are working. I think there's going to be this there's not going to be a Monday to Friday as such a nine to five. People will have a lot more flexible approach to work.

Speaker 2: 43:01

I think there's going to be a three-day working week generally, and I think people will do things, very various things, throughout their day to generate their own income. It won't be like that structure of nine to five, monday to Friday. I don't think it's going to be like that in the next 10 years. I just feel that's the shift, and what's kind of made that shift come into fruition is things like COVID, where people understood the idea of working from home and getting work-life balance, and I think a lot more people are looking at work-life balance. They're not looking necessarily at that grind and that hustle that we ordinarily had in the 2000s and the 90s and 80s. We're going to have a more holistic way of looking to work and there'll be employers that are ready to embrace that type of work, but the ones that will not be ready might be left on the sideline. That's my view.

Speaker 2: 43:59

I think it might not happen, but that's what I think is might not happen, but that's what I think's gonna happen, um, and it won't be this thing with entrepreneurs versus nine-to-fivers. It will be a bit more varied, um, because I think what it is is that you have someone who's an employee or employer, um, and the employer will either be in the category of I'm self-employed and I have my own little cake shop, for example, or I'm employed and I have a big corporate that I'm example, or I'm employed and I have a big corporate that I'm managing and I'm the CEO of the, the business of a large corporate. So I think those people will still be around. The large corpus will still be around. They won't go away. But I just think the world of work is going to change. It's going to be a bit more varied.

Speaker 1: 44:37

That's how I imagine it to be yeah, I think that could be, that could be the case, and I think businesses that do that work five days a week are going to do much, much better and be much more successful and be much higher impact than businesses that work three days a week.

Speaker 1: 44:52

You know they'll be doing uh, you know they'll just be much more successful because they're getting more stuff done. Um, but I do think you're right about that kind of flexibility. My son has just started his first job and he's in his year out from college and he's working in a software company and he's got flexible working hours and he can come in early and work Monday to Thursday and not have to work at all on Friday. He's got a side hustle selling clothes on Vinted I think Friday is going to be his Vinted day, and so I understand what you're saying. Yeah, but you know, and it's great to have work-life balance, but I think the three-day work thing, I think you know, for the broader economy to be productive and for us, for the UK economy to compete with, you know, france and germany and spain, we need to get stuff done and uh, but I think the way it would be done.

Speaker 2: 45:49

It wouldn't be a case of everyone working three. So what? The way I? This is the way I envision it, and it might not be how it is. I think there may be a three-day working week, but it'll be kind of scheduled to. For example, someone might work fr, Thursday and Saturday, for example. Another person would do that and it will rotate. So every day will be work, but it will be you know a lot more varied, but that's I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I'm just like.

Speaker 1: 46:21

Yeah, we should connect in 20 years.

Speaker 2: 46:30

What am I saying? We could see how it goes. Yeah, I could be wrong, but that's how I envision the workplace to be. I don't think it's going to be, um, like how it is now, because I think people are changing and people's priorities are changing in life of what they see is more important and before, work was the most important thing to people and I think people want to be able to have different passions and not just make, focus on just making money and having a good job, but I think they want to be able to have variety in their life yeah, a good

Speaker 2: 46:59

life because people, people have burnt out. I think in the past I've gone through burnout before where I've just been constantly working and I think for me at this stage in my life I don't want to kind of work myself to the ground, grinding, grinding. I think you do go through periods when you do have to grind and I had to do that at that point in my life. But now where I am, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 1: 47:28

Do you know? It can make yourself burnout-proof just by sleeping. Oh really, yeah. All you need to do is get eight or nine hours of sleep every night and you can work really hard every day. All you need to do is sleep. It's like a good bit of self-care and you can go at it like a crazy man or a crazy person monday to friday. Uh, just get some rest and relaxation. At the weekend you can do it again and I think you can make yourself burn out yeah, yeah, sleep it's really good sleep is.

Speaker 2: 48:00

Sleep is one of those things I, um, I still time the struggle with, but I'm trying to get better with it. I I monitor my sleep with like a fitbit so to see what type of sleep I'm getting, and I check myself on that. But it's, it's one of those things that, um, I I'm trying to actively work on so that I get proper it's like. So it's the key of getting a good mattress sleeping, not too hot too, not too cold, and yeah, it's meant to be like the same time.

Speaker 1: 48:30

Yeah, routine routines like super important. Their bedroom should be a little bit cooler than the rest of the house. It should be really dark, really dark and really quiet. Yeah, and those like like phones are terrible. You should leave your phone, oh no I've stopped.

Speaker 2: 48:45

I've stopped doing that. So I used to have my phone literally sleeping next to me on my bed, but I've stopped doing that. It's not.

Speaker 1: 48:51

It's not good yeah, yeah, it's going through your phone especially with my adhd brain.

Speaker 2: 48:57

I've just yeah, it's not good yeah, so, um, yeah, go ahead yeah I was just you know, this kind of know.

Speaker 1: 49:06

in the last five years, all these social media apps have appeared for your just you know people just flip through reels and that is terrible for ADHD people, Terrible Like it's well, no, but it's like it's just, it's so you know it is. It may not be a terrible experience for them, but it's so tempting and easy to just like lift your phone and like doom scroll for like I can kind of waste 15 minutes of your day.

Speaker 2: 49:34

uh, I've done that before and I've wasted the whole day. I've done that before and I stopped doing that. Now I'm getting to the help of not just putting my phone in a different room, because I will do that and the worst thing I do as an ADHD-er. I will have my phone and I'll be watching the TV, which doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 49:51

You know, sometimes I do that. It doesn't make sense, but you know we've only got yeah, but you've only got one cognitive. There's only one thing you can really pay attention to you know exactly yeah, yeah but I do it and it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2: 50:04

Like and my husband would be like you're scrolling on your phone but you watch, yeah, but I'm watching that program and I'll be picking up bits and pieces, but it's not a good look yeah, yeah, it's very good oh, it's been so good having you on this podcast, martin thank you, sir I just want to know, um, how can people um find you what? What are your handles? And also I'll ask you the last question, after the handles and everything, but yeah, how can I find you?

Speaker 1: 50:34

so it kind of on any platform it's just martin mckay, with no spaces, m-a-r-t-i-n-m-c-k-a-y. But the easiest way to find us is, uh, on the through the business and uh, that's called text help. T-e-x-t-h-e-l-p. It's got a kind of weird name, but originally we were just helping people with text, so we called ourselves text help okay, and what advice would you give to somebody who is neurodivergent and newly entering the workplace?

Speaker 1: 51:05

I would say be part of yourself. Good for you for getting a job, and I would encourage you to be open with your team and your employers and, you know, don't be talking about your neurodiversity in a negative way. Talk about your strengths, and I would talk about your strengths first and then, you know, mention some things that you could do with some accommodations around and are you also on linkedin just?

Speaker 1: 51:33

I am on linkedin. Yeah, and linkedin is the same, it's just, you know, I've been on linkedin. I'm so old, I was in linkedin right at the very beginning, so I've got my, my name. It's just, uh, linkedin martin mckay ah, amazing, martin.

Speaker 2: 51:47

Thank you so much for coming on. Divine and egmar, hopefully you can come again as a a second time guest, maybe in our studio one day. Um thank, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed um this episode and I got a lot of knowledge actually in terms of how um assistive software could be really, really um integral in in the workplace, particularly when you're neurodivergent.

Speaker 1: 52:12

Thank you again and thank you sarah, thank you for having me on the podcast and thank you for having the podcast, because it's like a. It's a really great thing you're doing and spreading the word. That's great thank you.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Thank you so much. I just want to let our audience members know about the six week coaching program that I'll be offering for people who are neurodivergent and who want to improve their career prospects in general or those who want to get into project management. You can also be non-neurodivergent too. I mentioned this earlier in previous episodes, but I want to make the time to offer it up to those looking for help in those areas in their life, as it's a great way to learn new skills to help you advance in your career. I'm also offering my support to people who want to pass the PRINT2 practitioner exam or other project management exams, as I've taken and failed the test a few times and I would like to help others by showing them how I passed.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Neuro in Egg Month, in which you get supportive community career and business mentorship, monthly group coaching calls, networking opportunities, mental health well-being days and unlimited body doubling sessions and UK and very soon international meetups. I'm also working with the British Dyslexic Association, analexic, one of the UK's biggest neurodiversity organisations, to ensure our members get free full neurodiversity assessments, accredited with an educational psychologist or doctor. So if this sounds like you're interested to learn more, please reach out to me directly to talk more about the membership. Please follow me on all platforms where you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to divining ed, mom, and if you got to the end, this is a safe place for project managers, professionals, side hustlers and anybody who's looking to navigate the complexity of being neurodiverse in the workplace and the corporate space. I'll see you next time.