Divine Enigma
At Divine Enigma, we're here to explore the wonders of neurodiversity amid busy corporate life and career dreams. Our platform is like a cosy sanctuary where everyone - whether you're a professional or an entrepreneur - can join in uplifting conversations. From simple tips for managing projects to self-care practices that work, we're all about helping you grow in your career journey. Picture us as your friendly guide through the twists and turns of corporate life, offering a holistic approach perfect for neurodiverse folks to not only get by but to truly shine in their careers.
Divine Enigma
Creative Pathways for Living with ADHD
Imagine crafting a stunning outfit overnight for a Nigerian wedding—sounds challenging, right? This story sets the stage for our episode on navigating the workplace with ADHD. We are joined by Jasmine, an inspiring entrepreneur who’s balancing her beauty business and the quirks of living with ADHD. Through our shared connection with the supportive community of ADHD Babes, we unravel the strength found in community and the journey of embracing neurodiversity in professional spaces.
Explore the unique challenges faced by neurodiverse individuals, especially black women, as we address how race and gender intersect with these conditions. Misunderstandings often lead to unjust treatment, and we discuss the critical need for workplaces that celebrate diverse minds. We share personal stories of the emotional rollercoaster involved in disclosing ADHD at work, alongside the resilience required to advocate for oneself amidst workplace trauma and rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
From medication and productivity hacks to the art of networking, discover how embracing ADHD traits can lead to fulfilling careers. Join us as we share tips on managing procrastination and everyday responsibilities, balancing independence with the need for support. We also explore how diverse interests can spark creativity and success, offering a glimpse into the multifaceted lives of those living with ADHD. Whether it’s setting a spending cap on hobbies or learning to network authentically, this episode is filled with insights for anyone navigating neurodiversity in their personal and professional lives.
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Music: “She Royalty” by Amaro & “Whistle” by Lukas Got Lucky
I have lots of weird, weird talents. Now, do you want a scarf? I can knit you a scarf. Now Do you know what? We had a wedding to go to and my friend couldn't find an outfit. It was our first Nigerian wedding. So we're like we need to, we need to go all out In Nigerian weddings. You have to go all out, right? So we went hunting and we ended up in Box Park, shoreditch, and they have shops outside and there was this guy who was selling like Nigerian clothes and stuff and my friend um, she's Chinese and she's really small so they didn't have anything that fit her, but they had these two really nice skirts and I was like I can make you an outfit from these skirts. The wedding's tomorrow, the wedding's tomorrow, and we have to drive to Leeds from London and I said I can make you an outfit. And they're like, and everyone's looking at me like Tessa, are you sure? Because I can do it in what?
Speaker 2:in a few hours?
Speaker 1:and I did, oh gosh, and it was amazing. I had the, had the crisscross prom back and everything I ate. Yo, it was yo. The aunties were coming up to say oh my god, you look so good.
Speaker 2:Oh my god yo, hello and welcome to Divine Eggma, a podcast that talks about how to navigate through the complexities of the workplace as a modern day professional, whilst simultaneously having a side hustle. We appreciate all of our audience members for taking some time out of their day to tune into another episode and look forward to providing you all with some value through our show today. My name is Sarah and I will be the host for this podcast. This podcast will be available on all platforms where you can find podcasts, including Spotify, amazon, apple Podcasts and we're also on YouTube. Now, before we dive in, I have a small favour to ask.
Speaker 2:Creating this podcast takes a lot of time and energy, and every bit of support helps me keep it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, five star rate comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify can make a significant difference in helping new listeners discover us. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey and if you're also watching on youtube, hit the subscribe button and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. Want to show your appreciation more, you can even buy me a coffee through buy me a coffee page. It's a simple way to support the show directly and helps cover production costs. Together, we can build an incredible community for ambitious professionals like you. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Now let's get started. All right, jasmine. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today on Divine Enigma. Do you mind introducing yourself?
Speaker 1:to the Now. Let's get started, and at the moment I am. I'm running a business, but kind of taking a break from that or trying to run a business, because running a business with ADHD is a struggle in itself tell me about it um, we met through ADHD babes, which I found through.
Speaker 1:They attended an event at my. In fact, no, um, another agency attended an event at my work and ADHD babes were mentioned in the in that and I thought, oh, that sounds like a place where you know I could explore this because, um, I was late diagnosed, when I was maybe 20, late 20s, so it's been really helpful, met a lot of people and, um, I think we met. We went to Kew Gardens yeah, we did um.
Speaker 2:So how I met Jasmine was again through ADHD babes. We went to Q Gardens and what fascinated me about you was the fact you had a business about hair oil, and I think some of you don't know this about me, but I love all things beauty. So I love things like oils, facials. I love that, my, I love beauty in products and stuff like that. So when I was like, ah, now I remember, I think that's probably why I remembered you the most, because anything to do with beauty I don't forget. That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I'm glad to know that, like, we're making our mark in our own way, just slowly but surely so.
Speaker 2:why I invited you into the podcast is because this is going to be quite an interesting episode, because I want us to talk about our experiences of mental health challenges, well-being in the workplace, because this podcast is all around neurodiversity in the workplace and how to navigate that um and um, how neurodiversity kind of impacts your ability at work in a positive but also negative way, and I sent an email out to people in the community, part of the Divine Enigma community. There was something that came back to me which was quite interesting. I'm going to read it out. So someone got back to me and said challenges include not being believed, which is typical as a black woman to experience gaslighting. When providing support requests, they are ignored. When experiencing stress or burnout, they often put extra work on you or take away your autonomy to cope with your own techniques.
Speaker 2:Neurodiversity has been great for me in work. If I'm left alone to set up my calendar and time block when it's been, a problem is when they want to take away my ability to cope and manage by not allowing me time block or rest according to my needs for the day I need for the day. I'm more, more of a morning person, so setting up meetings in the afternoon to keep me going and concentrate on work in the am stopping me from having flexibility, like other colleagues singling me out for my suggestions, bullying when I speak up, which is quite. I mean, can you kind of relate to this lady's experience, because this is something that's come back in the community and obviously, um, this is what people are actually going through at work having to disclose the neurodiverse conditions, and this is the kind of thing they're they're facing and they know that their neurodiversity is something positive for them. But all they need is slight adjustments just so they can do their job more effectively absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think, um, I've worked at places where my neurodiversity was not tolerated, was not accepted, it wasn't recognized, it wasn't really believed, if you will. It came across more as you're being difficult, you're not trying, you're not a team player, when the actual matter of fact is, I really am a team player. I, even though this isn't my dad's business, right?
Speaker 1:I do care about this. I do have a stake in this. I want to do well, but um, you know, when you don't march to the beat of I don't know, like a neurotypical drum, it comes across as you're being aggressive. You're being um disobedient, and then when you just like, said um, add in being a black woman on top of that, you have this perceived you're being, like I said, aggressive you roll your eyes. And what are you doing that for? Why? Why are you coming at me and it's like I'm just expressing myself?
Speaker 1:and you're attacking me and now I'm feeling overwhelmed and it starts to spiral from there. When you feel overwhelmed, you start not performing, you don't want to do things, you start getting burnt out and it's a very slippery slope when you're not supported.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that she mentioned she's a black woman because, um, I went into a panel, um last night in regards to how black women are perceived with neurodiverse conditions and particularly when it pertains to children and how they are treated. So, um, sometimes when you look at, say there's a black girl when she's getting upset because she's frustrated, oh, she's a naughty child, she can't control herself. It's the same perception, seen as you know, a white little girl who may be getting frustrated because she's not getting the support she needs, will she be treated in the same way?
Speaker 1:you know, I would never think so. Well, actually, never is a strong word, but I think it happens. Less so Because if I think of my own experiences growing up with undiagnosed ADHD, now I would always be told. My score reports would always say Jasmine is very bright, but she keeps talking and I'm thinking I'm not talking to myself, but they're not getting told off. It's always me that gets singled out. I'm not even being overly loud or ridiculous, I'm just I've finished myled out. I'm not even being overly loud or ridiculous, I'm just I finished my work. I'm not supposed to, I'm bored and you know I'd be told things like you're attention seeking. I'm not attention seeking, I'm under stimulated and I need something to do.
Speaker 1:But then you know you have the boys in the class who might have ADHD and because they're flipping tables and stuff, they're getting the right attention and it's. There definitely is an issue around perception, negative perceptions is that being black?
Speaker 2:because I feel that sometimes it could be a double whammy in it. So you're female and black, and then you have a triple whammy and you have like a neurodiverse condition, um, that that can bring a lot of complexities around that, because you're like okay, so you know I'm, I'm a woman, so I'm already seen almost less than and I can't behave the way boys behave because boys are allowed to be more boisterous um, I'm a black woman. So already there's ideologies of what people perceive black women to do, and let's not even go into how black girls are, um made to be treated like adults so they get the same punishment and the adult would get, rather than just being seen as a child. And then on top of that, you have a neurodiverse condition. Um, it plays into a lot of like perceptions of what people have. Um, it's a difficult one, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Um why would I see more about disclosure, like how do you feel like um disclosure has to be addressed in terms of dealing with neurodiverse conditions, because already you're saying that black women there's, you have to act a certain way. So I fight. You know what I find with being a black woman generally, I find that we're invisible but also very visible. You're never alone, you're never alone. So so like, yeah, you're invisible and also invisible. Highly visible, but invisible. So a lot of the time you're you're when you put your thoughts forward, no one listens to you. But also, at the same time, if you do come across more like assertive, you're deemed as more aggressive do you know what I feel?
Speaker 1:you know when I see, when I'm out and about, I feel like I have to not necessarily look my best, but at least look decent. I have to act decent. I have to think about what I'm saying, doing, because I feel like I'm representing all black people. I feel like and especially if I'm outside of London as well, even more so. I feel other people don't experience that so much and when they're around and doing their thing they're not representing anybody, they're not thinking about anybody yeah, they're just thinking about themselves, just going about their business.
Speaker 1:And I think that's even more so amplified from when you're neurodivergent and it comes to disclosing. So when I started my previous role, I had only just recently been diagnosed, maybe two weeks or so before, and the day I started I said to my manager I need to talk to you and I said I've just recently been diagnosed with ADHD. I'm still learning what it means to actually have ADHD and how to cope with it, but I'm letting you know because I know it impacts my work, I know it impacts my day-to-day life and, you know, maybe this is something we could learn together, because I was at the beginning of my journey and they're like yeah, sure, yeah sure, okay, that's fine, we're super supportive. Nothing, nothing. They. They made me, do you know the first thing? They made me write the longest list ever which was the most boring thing to do, um of how ADHD impacts my work and my personal life. I don't know why they need to know about my personal life anyway, but okay, and I wrote that list and then nothing ever came of it and that was my first experience of disclosing my diagnosis and in the end I ended up having a lot of issues with that company and it all related to my ADHD and the kind of thing stemming off that, and I had to fight a lot and I had to learn how to advocate for myself a lot, and I had to learn a lot on my own.
Speaker 1:The second big corporate company I worked for, um. When I started the first day again, I thought you know what? Um, I always kind of believe in the benefits of the doubt. So I said let me, let me, uh, disclose this again and see how it goes. It's supposed to be, you know, an amazing company. So I said, let me, let me disclose this again and see how it goes. It's supposed to be, you know, an amazing company. So I did.
Speaker 1:I said to the HR lady um, I recently been diagnosed with ADHD although at this point it was a few months into my diagnosis and it affects my work like this, and this is the experience I've had already, and how can you help me? And she said, okay, we'll get on it on Monday. And they did. They actually did, and my manager was on it and my line manager was on it, and I had a workplace health assessment, I had an ADHD coach, I had what's the word, like lots of recommendations that they get software, fidget toys, noise cancelling, so many things. Um, all these accommodations that's the word were understood, and it wasn't just physical things, it was also, you know, having my manager understand how I work and having my management stand.
Speaker 1:I can't check my emails all day. I'm not the person that you know. An email comes in and I can just get on that straight away. I'll check my emails in the morning and then I'll check them again at about two or just after lunch, because if I'm checking them all day it breaks my focus and them understanding. That helped. So I had a really positive experience with disclosure and a really negative experience and you know, moving forward, I'm always going to try and have the benefit of the doubt because and disclose because I don't want to be at a company where they're not going to treat me right or there's there's kind of things that I don't like around it.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, sometimes you need a job and sometimes, um, you're just not comfortable like learning how to advocate for yourself. It's really hard and the only reason I became so comfortable with it is because I had so many people around me to support me going through that. But I wouldn't disclose it in interview stage unless the interviewer also kind of demonstrated traits that I was like I think this person might be on my wave. Then I might talk about it, because that also gives me an indication that this company should be fairly tolerant. But if, if they're not coming across like that, I'm gonna stay still until I get the job no, I think sometimes with disclosure there's a lot of trauma that comes with that as well.
Speaker 2:And thank you for sharing that experience, because sometimes if you've had that experience of telling someone, this is how I work and I have these conditions, and then you get hit back with such a negative experience for some people, it might kind of make them not want to disclose at all because it can be quite traumatic. Not want to disclose at all because it can be quite traumatic. And I know there's a very strong link with people. People that have ADHD tend to have um, rsd, which is rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, um, and so when you've gone through that experience you might not feel confident enough to disclose again because you're just I don't want to go through this again.
Speaker 2:You know, um, yeah, I, I didn't quite disclose my neurodiversity, but I did work for a very toxic organization and even with that sometimes, um, we don't, we don't think that, um, we don't really kind of digest that we can have workplace trauma in terms of like, we've been in a workplace, we've been treated really badly, we're doing our best, but what we're doing, what we're doing isn't really being appreciated, and then if we go somewhere else, we always have to think. I don't want to carry that burden or that trauma into a new workplace. I want to start fresh. But sometimes it does take, because we we always think about personal trauma but we don't think about the corporate drama that we can kind of deal with like going into a workplace and you're like, okay, I did everything right.
Speaker 1:But look at what happened no, honestly, it's a kind of once bitten, twice shy situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um yeah, it's just yeah I. I remember when I worked at one place, um, and I was just getting heat all the time and I felt like I had to explain myself constantly, had to prove to you know, my boss, that I'm, I have the capacity or capability to do your job. And you get that sense of like this gut, though for me, I've got this gut wrenching. So every morning you wake up and like I don't want to go. I was kind of happy today, you know, and you're just gearing yourself up. You're almost working in this fight and flight mode. So you're fighting. You feel like you're fighting for your life, yeah, which I guess can you know, bring out, course, the dough levels and cause you to be very, very stressed. And you're constantly on high alert oh, 100, all the time, because you're like I don't know what's going to happen each day. I'm just getting day getting through, day by day by day week by week, you know.
Speaker 1:This is the difference between working somewhere where you feel a positive environment and negative environment because the first place I worked.
Speaker 1:I only worked there for well January till I think what? Three months, four months, so April. Then I was dismissed for a few months. Then I came back in August. I was there for two weeks and then I started my new job in October. No, september, october I started the next job and the few months that I was in the first job, those dragged every day. I was watching the clock every day. I didn't want to go to work. Every day was just stress. The last job, so the second organization. I was there for nearly two years and it passed so quickly because I actually enjoyed the job. The people, the environment, everything was just so much better and it makes such a difference. I didn't know you could actually be happy at work. I was like what do you mean? I can be, I can enjoy my job. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:There's another. One of the challenges a lot of ADHDers tend to have is that balance of energy and burnout. So one thing I know that I'm very good at doing as an ADHDer is hyper focusing, so I'm just in the zone where.
Speaker 2:I'm just like I can just work for ages. But what I forget, it does make me burn out and I don't realize those burnouts. What I forget, it does make me burn out and I don't realize those burnouts. And, um, I think one of the when I was on the panel yesterday, one of the um audience asked or how do you, you know balance, your, you know your ADHD, um, or hyper focusing? And one thing I'm learning now and I'm still kind of on that journey, so I I put my mental well-being and health as a priority. I'm very unapologetic about it, um, and the only reason why I'm like that is because I know what it's like to burn out. I know exactly the feeling.
Speaker 2:Um, I didn't actually, when they were talking about all this burnout stuff, I didn't actually know what it was, but when I looked back at how I was and the symptoms, things like, I was breaking out with um unusual acne on my skin. So I wasn't like the way I burn out it doesn't show like on my, on my, like I won't act stressed, I'll act like everything's the way, but it was showing in a little way. So I was getting acne and it was unexplained acne. I didn't know why I was getting it and I was getting taken steroid cream for my GP because I was getting breakouts all over my face and it was just my skin. My mouth was drying up. I didn't know why all these things like my immunity had to shut down. And then I remember there was one point where I used to drive to work every day. It was like a two-hour drive and I remember I kind of like collapsed in myself. I can't explain it, but literally I physically couldn't get myself to leave the house, get into my car.
Speaker 2:I couldn't do it that makes sense I didn't understand, like what's wrong with you? Why can't you just and I thought there was something wrong with me and when I think about it, that was literally what burnout was you physically cannot do it like your brain, like your brain wants to, but your body is telling you no, we're done, that's it. Um and um. Now, because I went through that experience, I'm like, if I feel that I'm getting doing too many things or taking on too much, I just learned to say no, because that feeling of burnout is not a joke. It is a horrible feeling. You can't do anything.
Speaker 1:You can't clean, yeah, you can't do anything, you can't cook. My Deliveroo and Uber Eats went crazy with the burnout. And then that makes you more stressed, because now you're spending, spending and you're like I need to slow down, but I also can't be.
Speaker 2:I haven't got the energy to go buy the ingredients to go cook. It's the only way I could explain it. It's like your brain doesn't connect with your body. That's basically what happens. So your brain is like yeah, it's a very simple task, you can walk and open the door, but your body is not letting you do it. So that's that's when I knew I went through that experience. I'm like no, I'm not doing that again. So I just wanted to ask you, in terms of like an ADHD, or how do you kind of manage being really productive for work and using your ADHD traits which are positive traits but not allowing that to sort of burn you out?
Speaker 1:so I use a few different things. The first thing I'm an advocate for meds. I live for my meds Since I had them. The first day I had them I was actually super sad.
Speaker 1:I spent my first day crying because I was like what do you mean? I can just, if I need to do something right now, I just get up and do it. I spent the first day so sad. I've lived 20-something years of my life I've been struggling. I said I've lived 20-something years of my life I've been struggling. I struggled with my A-levels, I struggled with my GCSEs, and this is why, so since I've had my meds, I use the ones that have the short burst, because the long burst couldn't do it. That one had me stressed. Right, the short burst helps me. I maybe have like a four-hour window to do.
Speaker 2:Could you explain what the meds are, just in case people don't understand?
Speaker 1:oh sure, yeah, no, I know, because I know what you mean, but like yeah, so, um, I take methylphenidate, I want to say, which I think is also known as either ritalin or concert or one of those right and um. It's a short release, so I'll take. I can take three tablets a day morning, afternoon and evening. My evening dose is lower, otherwise I'll be up all night and when I take it it takes maybe about half an hour 45 minutes to kick in and then I'm focused. But there is a downside to it because if I focus on the wrong thing I'm locked into the wrong task. So I have to be careful with that. But it's helpful.
Speaker 1:So, say I have important work to do, or especially boring work, I'll take that I can get through the boring work. Then when I feel the come down around about three, four hours, that's when I know right, let's take a break, eat, because I always forget to eat, forget to go loo, forget to do everything. Sort myself maybe like have a little dopamine hit TikTok or something, and then have my next dose and get back to it. But I don't like. I also don't like to take meds all the time because I want to learn how to be a bit self sufficient and to you know, there's so many shortages. Luckily I haven't been affected by shortages, but if I was, I don't want to be completely unable to function. So what I also do is I'm a very visual person and I very much exist within. If I can't see it, it doesn't exist to me. So I think I'm the same. All my shelves, all my stationery, all my paperwork, it's all open.
Speaker 1:I can see it, I have a um cork board and what I've done is I've created my own uh, what's the word? Like skill tree of things that I want to do, need to do. If I achieve that, then I can have a little treat, because we all love our dopamine hits and I gamify things, and that's another way how you know when I know I need to do something but I'm not sure what to do, I can look at at that, always making sure I have. I have a productivity app and that reminds me to take my meds, it reminds me to drink water, it reminds me if I have emails or something to do. I'll put it in there.
Speaker 1:Um, sometimes I what I like about it is that it has different ways.
Speaker 1:So I can have um, I can have it give me like constant reminders, or I can just have something where I just throw a bunch of things in and at least I know it's there for me to look at and see what I need to do. Um, it also helps and this I always feel a bit um, I always feel like a spoiled brat in a way when I say this, because to me it sounds like I'm saying I can't do things unless I want to. It kind of is the case sometimes, and I know I need to put my big girl pants on and do things that I don't want to do. But if you really want me to work at my best, give me something I'll be interested in, and that's the difference between working in a place that understands you and a place that doesn't. So, for instance, um, where I worked, they put me on a really interesting account that had a lot of um different opportunities and a lot of the the role that I did.
Speaker 1:It was very much a you kind of run this account on your own in a way that you wanted to, and that was the perfect role and the perfect account for me, because it was always interesting and if I hadn't been honest with my manager and said this is how I work, it wouldn't have. It wouldn't have worked for me because if they gave me something boring like local government, I wouldn't be able to lock in. I can't lie, I can't do it. So, um, that's kind of how I use my my. If I could really learn how to fine-tune my hyper focus, in fact, all of us would be unstoppable. We could rule the world.
Speaker 2:I I definitely believe in that. Another thing I've noticed about people with adhd and I remember viv. I want to mention viv. Viv is um, the ceo and founder of adhd babes. One thing she always says is that, um, we need to home into our adhd traits. So if you have interest in something for six months and you're hyper focused on it and then after six months you want to do something else, lean into that. That's okay.
Speaker 2:A lot of the time, society expects you to like you just need to focus on one thing and just do that one thing. Well, but one thing I love about Viv she does a lot of things. So I know she's. She's a singer, she can sing. She runs, like you know, the ADHD CIC. She works as a psychiatrist and she's a singer, she can sing, she runs, like you know, the ADHD CIC. She works as a psychiatrist. She's doing all these different projects all the time and she's not just one facet. You know, and I think we live in a world where we just expect one person to be this, like this is what you are and that's the box you're supposed to fit in, what you are and that's the box you're supposed to fit in, um. But I think with people generally, with neurodiverse conditions and ADHD is in particular, we can do a lot. We're good at doing a lot of different things.
Speaker 1:I find.
Speaker 2:So you know I do this podcast, but I work as a program manager and I I do so many other different things honestly.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I get it. I completely get it, because there's I. I've done so many different things and, to be honest, if I look at everything I've done, I can kind of see a common trait through it. But you have to, you can't just look into something and I remember the most helpful thing I heard somebody, I was um, I spoke to somebody at my last work and I said to them I was looking for a role and I had mentors. I I'm I'm very good at networking and I'd networked like nobody. I'm not very good at networking. Oh, it's my thing. That's my thing. If anyone needs help on networking or learning how to network, that's my jam.
Speaker 2:I can do it, but I don't like it. I find it so hard.
Speaker 1:I could make you like it. I find it so hard, I could make you like it. God, I've tried Doing it with the right people, yeah yeah, that's the key, and putting yourself in the right environment and having the right hype person. It's not just about going on your own and going into a room. It's about having someone that's like you're amazing, we're going to get this, and you're like do you know what? I am amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna get this and then you're.
Speaker 1:Then you're like, yeah, I'm me and you want me, I don't need you, you need me, that's I.
Speaker 2:I don't know like I, I, I. If I have to network, I will do it, but it's something that I don't find very comfortable doing. I find like I'm going into this room, I'm seeing all these people and I'm like where do I start? And some of them don't look friendly, some not. I don't know, I want to go home.
Speaker 1:I get it. Do you know what the joke is? Yeah, I'm incredibly shy. No one who knows me would believe me. Just what is it? No one would believe me if I said I'm shy. I'm actually so incredibly shy. But the thing is I have a limit. And it's the point where I say forget this, I'm just gonna go for it, and that limit's very low for me. So I just end up going for a lot of things. Do you know what? I think it is with me?
Speaker 2:I think I get over, I think maybe I overthink and I end up getting very overwhelmed. So that's probably why I don't like networking. So I feel like I have to meet all these different people and then by the time I've done it, I'm like you don't have to meet all these people.
Speaker 1:You just have to meet one person okay, that's probably.
Speaker 1:That's maybe it's the approach I'm taking honestly, when I go networking, I remember I went to this event and, um, it was loads of people, all these companies, all these amazing founders and everything. I just found one person who actually related to what I wanted to do and just honed in on them, spoke to them and then they actually ended up introducing me to somebody else and it just happened naturally. But I didn't, because if I start saying just walk up to people hi, my name's Jasmine, that's awkward. No one does that.
Speaker 1:But, if I just if there's just one person that I feel like I can connect with then it's a successful event for me.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's a, there's the, the. It's not authentic. So that's probably why I feel like, like, would I actually talk to you in real life?
Speaker 1:like no, maybe I have to get out of my head.
Speaker 2:I don't know, no, but I get it. But again.
Speaker 1:I'm not. I don't go up to people who I I don't think I can talk to because I can't just talk to you about myself.
Speaker 1:We need to talk about real stuff. We need to talk I don't know whether you use red gummy or not, because the blue gummy just doesn't hold as well Like I need to have a conversation with you as well, because if we're going to network and like build a real relationship, a lot of real these, you know, corporate relationships that you see they're not just stocks and shares and business deals, they talk to each other and they're they connected on something else and that's like that's how I network. I don't go to advertise my business, advertise me, and that's, that's the difference. Don't honestly get when you, once you like, manage to step out your head even for a second and do something. But it is a challenge and it's something that you have to do repetitively, otherwise that rsd kicks in and you're like, oh, oh, I made my I look stupid when I said that, and it's like you didn't don't worry about it.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I think? I do suffer from rsd really badly. Um, because even when I go to a workshop and people say I've done well, there's this thing in me that thinks am I imposter?
Speaker 1:oh no 100%, did they really like me, are they just saying to be polite?
Speaker 2:and especially, what am I even doing here? Do I?
Speaker 1:even really know what I'm talking about. No, yeah, like what? How did I even get here in the first place? Like, do they? There's better people than me, why did they go for me? No, I get it. I get it 100%. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel that all the time, so I think that's something that's just me. Maybe I have to work on that in my head, but, um, yeah, I'm. I'm trying to get better at networking. There's one thing that I've I wanted to ask you actually around empathy and understanding. Do you know what we?
Speaker 1:did that thing. I forgot to tell you the thing that somebody told me oh, what was that? It was when I was looking for a role, not just because people always say, oh, what do you want to do? Yeah, there's product management, account management, whatever. I'm not looking for a specific role, I'm looking for something based on my strengths, yes, yeah. And then for when you say that, the the balls in their court, really to, because I can't. I don't just want to be one thing, but yeah let's we segwayed hard.
Speaker 2:Then I wanted to ask you about empathy and understanding. So that's a strong trait of people generally who have neurodiverse conditions, but how can that work against you as well? Because I find sometimes, when you're too empathetic, um, I find people take advantage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes, yeah, you get, um, you can get locked into the wrong part of something. So, like I said, building connections with people. But I could almost work like, build those um, personal connections too hard and forget that we need to do business and corporate things and you know we'll be there talking about your mom and your dog and your nan, and now we haven't now the meeting's over, and we haven't actually gone through any of these milestones or kpis or anything that we need to, because I was too busy empathizing with you, talking about your mom and your dog and your nan, and on the other side of that, when this it's, you know, maybe with your colleagues or something, it's very easy for people to kind of just lump things onto you.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, someone will say, oh, I'm a bit stressed, I'll take that for you. I get that, let me help you with that. And you're there putting parts of yourself everywhere because you're like, I can help with this and I can help you with that, and then you've got nothing left for yourself. And then, hey, help with this and I can help you with that, and da, da, da, da, and then you've got nothing left for yourself. And then, hey ho, we're back at burnout. So it very much is a double-edged sword and kind of like you said, you have to learn how to say no to some things.
Speaker 2:and it would kill me, oh my god, it would kill me to say no sometimes but you know what it is, and this is where I'm talking about the whole thing, about being a black woman, being a woman and then having neurodiverse conditions. So it's like I would say it's a triple one me, to be honest with you. But like when you're trying to please people and you say no, it's almost like if you say no to something, they perceive you as being difficult. So I remember, I do remember the situation at work years ago where I worked for a debt collection company as being difficult. So I remember that. I do remember the situation at work years ago where, um, I worked for a debt collection company. That was a back in the days.
Speaker 2:I don't do that anymore and um, I remember there was an account that, um, I was told to take over, but I had enough work for me to do anyway, so there was an extra account. My boss said I have to do and I'm like, no, I don't have the capacity right now. And even though, like I didn't have the capacity and I wasn't being difficult, I just said I just don't have the capacity. I have to manage my own workloads. I've got a lot on anyway.
Speaker 2:The way I was given like slack for it, like I was being aggressive, I was being difficult. Why are you not taking on what do you not? Do you not care about the team? You know we're all working in the team. You need to be a bit more. You know, show more support to your colleagues. And I just felt to myself like, internally, I felt like, am I doing something wrong? But I just couldn't take on extra work. And it made you. It almost makes you think am I competent at my job? So the way they will come across to you is like are you competent at your job but you can't take on this extra work? But as well, what I'm doing is what I'm supposed to do within my role and sometimes you'll take on more because you're worried that you don't want to be perceived as a difficult person at work were they older than you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I feel like it's a generational thing on top of everything. I feel like the generation above us have a very different attitude when it comes to work, and then we're kind of somewhere in between, where we we want we still want to work and we're very team player, but also we care about our mental health and ourselves.
Speaker 1:And then the generation beneath us they're like I quit, I don't care this is this isn't doing it for me and though, and and I think there's kind of lessons to be learned across the spectrum there and this whole you need to be a team player thing. You can be a team player between nine to five and within your own capacity, and then you know you can be a team player and play to your strengths with your neurodiversity. And I think there's a a lack of understanding and accountability at the workplace, especially amongst managers, um, who kind of refuse to learn, actually learn about their um I don't know what the word is, but learn about their team yeah and learn how to work with people.
Speaker 1:They kind of have their set um kind of method for how things should be done, and if you don't fit within that you're a problem and this is the thing, like it's that thing of being a black woman.
Speaker 2:You don't want to be seen as a problem because already you're entering an environment where the perception is that you're hostile and you're not being hostile. You're literally just saying I can't take on extra work. I already have enough on my plate. But if I don't take this extra work then I'm a difficult person. So it's almost finding that balance, is that? Sometimes I would question myself. I'm like I'll say no, but then next time I have my review at work, um, you, you won't really. You're not really much of a team player.
Speaker 2:Sarah, you know that the team needed, um, the support, but you wouldn't give that support and I think what you do is not fair for other people within the team. You're not pulling your weight, but I'm like but, but I'm doing enough. I have a very large account. I'm taking an account which is not really my account and I can't take on extra. So sometimes it's almost finding that balance. I'm happy to help where I can help and I go out, and I do go above and beyond, but when it gets to the limit I'm like I can't, you know. No, I get it and I just feel like this is what I'm talking about when you talk about, um, being empathetic, you do more than you would because you're trying to kind of prove yourself, and then, when you're being a, when you're a black woman, you're even proving yourself more because that there's that whole thing that you've got to work twice as hard to be visible but at the same time, even though you are visible, you're very much invisible.
Speaker 1:At the same time, even though you are visible, you're very much invisible at the same time. No, absolutely Honestly, people aren't willing to accept that they have biases and that plays into a lot of things. When they're doing these reviews and things, people say I'm not racist. What do you mean? There's nothing wrong with that. I have black friends. But you have to recognize everybody has a bias and maybe if you understood how your bias is affecting you, you could reevaluate things and see that you know Sarah's doing the same as Amy, but you're being hard on Sarah. Why is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah, people don't want to recognize those. They really don't. Another thing that I want to talk about is procrastination. Why do you think ADHD procrastinates the?
Speaker 1:most.
Speaker 2:Dopamine, dopamine.
Speaker 1:Dopamine, because if I have to do something, there's only two, okay three ways. I'm doing it either with my meds, either because there's a deadline and I have to do it, or because I enjoy it. Either one of all of those things, it's giving me that hit that I need to get through. If it's not giving me that hit, I don't want to do it and that's why I say I sound like a spoiled brat and I'm actually trying to work through it. It's not something that I just accept and say I don't like it, so I'm not going to do it. I want to say that I can't lie, but I won't. But you know, um, it's just it's. It's not even this kind of standard procrastination where I'm just lying there like enjoying that. I'm lying there because I'm lying there, stressed that I'm not doing what I need to do.
Speaker 1:I know what I need to do. I have a 12 step plan and a whole chart that tells me what to do. My notifications are going off telling me what I need to do, but I just can't do it because it's so boring and it's just giving me nothing. I've had my emails built up so much and I just couldn't be bothered to sort through them and I couldn't do it. I was to say I can't do this. And those I had like maybe two months worth of small things that I knocked out in about three hours tops the other day because they were so boring just small, boring things. But I'm like, do you know what, if I do this, then I won't be stressed. But do you know the worst part about procrastinating and then getting over it? I don't even feel great afterwards. I just feel like, okay, what's the next thing now?
Speaker 2:I can't even enjoy that.
Speaker 1:I've just achieved something, so like what do? What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2:I think the reason why I procrastinate is because I like things to be perfect, and if I know it's not going to be perfect, I'm not going to do it. I think that's it and sometimes there's a part of me that just I want to get the work done, but I can't seem to get it done, unless someone's forcing me to do it which is really bad and why do I have to be in pain in order?
Speaker 2:for me? Like someone physically has to tell me do it, sarah, or this will happen. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I think that's probably why I procrastinate, and then at the end of it I'm like that's all I had to do. But because of my procrastination I'm wasting time. Like one of the big barriers which is on my head right now is, obviously I've entered the world of business. I need to do bookkeeping? Oh no, and I'm like oh, it's so, it's so hard it's so it's so boring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, finding receipts tracking tracking everything that you've going back through checking if I've used this card.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, just the thought of it right now, and it's something I have to do, which means it leads me on to things like ADHD tax oh god, it's so expensive yeah, oh, I. I was talking about this yesterday. Yeah, I had a subscribe. I'm mad because people are gonna hear this now and I'm gonna admit something. Okay, I had a subscription come out about three days ago for 36 pound and 92 pence. I don't know what it's for.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh, I don't know, and I can't, and I can't be bothered to find it oh my gosh I've just paid a subscription for something over the way it is
Speaker 1:and whenever something like that happens, I get that. You know that. You know, like how you hear people say oh you know, if you didn't buy avocado toast, you could buy a house and things. This is what I hear in my head. I think if I didn't spend 32 pound 94 on some random subscription, you know, maybe I could do this and that, and then it's not just random subscriptions, it's hobbies, hobbies, it's. I need to do this. So I need this particular thing because if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. I'm not going to, you know, half do anything. What else is it? It's expensive, it's very expensive.
Speaker 2:This is a problem I have, so I have dyslexia and I have ADHD and being dyslexic is very expensive because I remember there was one time I booked a holiday and I forgot basically what date the holiday was and I ended up having to pay for that holiday again to make sure I go on the right date which cost me a lot of money because I couldn't remember. You know what's so stressful so that's my life?
Speaker 1:no, but I get it and this is why, like I have, I have to have my partner. I and I, sometimes, I sometimes I get mad. It's actually funny because sometimes, like, treat me like a child and I just want to. I'm an adult, I'm a woman, I'm a strong woman, I want to do things on my own. But then other times I'm like, can you do everything? Because I'm a strong woman, I want to do things on my own. But then other times I'm like, can you do everything?
Speaker 1:Because I'm going to forget and you know it's valid, so everything that has to be kind of bills and everything. I know what the bills are, but really and truly I don't, because I know that if it was really left down to me, I probably would pay the bills. But after I've been cut off, if I'm honest because get it, I'll turn on the lecky and I'll be like, oh wait, the lecky's out, let me go pay it. And I have to be honest and people will say, oh, you could learn to deal with that and it's like I could, but I have to be punished to learn how to deal with it. You know, you had a holiday, I am. I'm also dyslexic. Yeah and um, I went to order a burger and it said habanero burger.
Speaker 2:No, no, yeah, it said jalapeno habanero either way, you can see where this is going I thought, oh yeah, like a nice jalapeno jam or something's gonna be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it said habanero and I nearly died. It was so spicy. And I'm there crying and I'm like I can't take spicy food like that. I'm not the one, not, not those crazy carolina reaper things. It's not me. So yeah, adhd tax, dyslexia tax, it's not. It's not like, it's not my. I can't even my um like this, like tapping to pay everything. It's not good for me, oh no so I've.
Speaker 2:I've now, with the tap him thing, I've disabled some of my cards because, um, yeah, I can't be trusted with that, it's not good. I have to put friction basically between myself and certain things because I know that it's just not going to work. This doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1:So no, honestly. Yeah, adhd, taxes and like once you get that hyper fixation. I've wanted to make beaded bracelets for three months. I've got maybe 80 pounds worth of beads in my aliexpress basket that I am wanted to make beaded bracelets for three months. I've got maybe 80 pounds worth of beads in my AliExpress basket that I am refusing to let myself buy. Do you know what I do now? I accept that I'm going to always have hobbies that I want to do, whether it's making beaded bracelets or nails or whatever. I set a 30 pound limit on myself. If I want to get into something, I can spend up to 30 pound on it. If you stick with it, then you can invest in this. If you don't, it's 30 pounds. What's that? Like one?
Speaker 1:delivery or something that's a very good. That's how I get through it and then also.
Speaker 1:I have things. So you know, if I find somebody else who wants it and I'm not using it, I'll just give it away. I'm, I'm not. It's 30 pounds once. Once it's a couple months away from that, it doesn't even really matter. So I've got, I've got nail kits, I've got watercolors. Knitting um, streaming equipment, sewing um these are just ones off the top of my head makeup, like like proper, like fancy makeup, hair scarves, you name it. I've probably had like a hobby about around it. Honestly, books don't get me started on books.
Speaker 2:But you know what? That is actually a great thing to have many hobbies, to have many interests. It just means that you're an interesting person. Oh my God, thank you. Because, like I think, some people like downplay the fact that, oh, if you have too many hobbies and you're scattered and you can't focus on anything. But I think it's something that really should be celebrated, like the fact you can try different things, learn. I have lots of weird, weird talents.
Speaker 1:Now, do you want a scarf? I can knit you a scarf. Now, do you know what? We had a wedding to go to and my friend couldn't find an outfit. It was our first Nigerian wedding. So, and my friend couldn't find an outfit, it was our first Nigerian wedding. So we're like we need to, we need to go all out. Well, nigerian, what does she have to come out of, right? So we went hunting and we ended up in Box Park, shoreditch, and they have shops outside, and there was this guy who was selling like Nigerian clothes and stuff and my friend, she's Chinese and she's really small, so they didn't have anything that fit her, but they had these two really nice skirts and I was like I can make you an outfit from these skirts. The wedding's tomorrow, the oh my gosh, the wedding's tomorrow and we have to drive to Leeds from London, oh my gosh. And I said I can make you an outfit and they're like and everyone's looking at me like Jasmine, are you sure?
Speaker 2:I said I can do it in what, in a few hours, in a few hours, I can do it and I did, oh gosh, and it was amazing.
Speaker 1:It had the, it had the crisscross prom back and everything I ate. Are you yo? It was yo. The aunties were coming up to her. Oh my God, you look so good. Oh my God, yo. Because they're looking at this Chinese girl and like these, it was like a. I don't know what the prints are or anything, right, but it was like this I'll call it.
Speaker 2:It might be because I'm half Nigerian, so it'd be probably Ashobi.
Speaker 1:It was like turquoise and green and triangles and it was amazing and I made that and I can. There's just I'm really good at photoshop. I have all these weird things that someone will say, oh, I need someone to do this. I'm like, oh, you can do that actually. So there is more than what you said. You know there are upsides. I guess, just like a real tax that does that. You know, use that tax money to pay for things. I guess there is a benefit to ADHD tax, but you need to learn how to curb it. Don't let it overwhelm you yeah, don't let it get too far.
Speaker 1:Set that limit for me. It's 30 pounds.
Speaker 2:Up to 30 pounds, I'm okay, I think that's a good like, that's a good um methodology and try to borrow what you can if you know somebody who is into like the knitting thing.
Speaker 1:My friend's mom knits, so the only thing I ended up buying was two balls of wool. Everything else she gave me books, needles, yarn, everything, and I didn't even end up spending that much on that hobby. So just start like passing things around. Someone say, oh, I need now stuff. I said, my friend, I got now stuff. I got a lamp. I got build a gel. What do you need? I got it. My hobby box is so densely heavy it's ridiculous. But then when my little brother comes over, I've got paint to him to play with. So it's just you got to reframe it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you can appreciate it.
Speaker 2:So we're getting closer to the end of the podcast, the pod. So have you got any sort of final words for the audience? And also, where can we find you?
Speaker 1:me. Um, you can find me, I guess, professionally on LinkedIn as Jasmine K Bowen, b-o-w-e-n and um, you can find me, I guess my business socials probably be the best that would be Hoyo Haircare. On TikTok and Instagram, h-o-y-a-l and then haircare all one word. I'm very bad at socials, so there's not a lot on there. One day, maybe next time, I'll have more there.
Speaker 1:But my final words would be to ADHD has a lot of benefits. I don't even know if benefits, but there's a lot of strengths and there's a lot around mindset and it's not easy. It's not even just ADHD, it's neurodivergency as a whole, to be honest. Um, there are benefits and there are drawbacks sometimes, but no man is an Island and it's about the community that you have around you really and truly. And if you have something where you know you're not as strong as it helps to have somebody around you who can help either help you through that or just help do that for you and that supports that support system, that network around you, the people who are with you through thick and thin. They can really, really change your experience and there's just so much you can learn from it. Talking about it, genuinely talking with people who have those similar experiences. You learn so much from it.
Speaker 2:I would say this actually and I'm getting getting to learn this as I get older in life that, um, if you have a neurodiverse condition, just know that at every stage in your life it's going to affect you in different ways. So, for example, um, it will affect you when you're in school, university, when you you're in a relationship, get a partner, maybe getting even getting married, um, when you decide to have children, pregnancy and write down for women, menopause as well, um, there are a lot of women that I've come across that I've gone through the menopause and they are dealing with adhd and that's a whole different thing all together as well. So, just knowing that there are different stages in your life where your neurodiversity is going to show up for you in different ways, and just learning to embrace that, because that's a different season in your life, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I would say you can't be too hard. People are so hard on themselves about their, about their neurodiversity. It's something in your brain. Your brain is what controls everything that you do you know, if it's so, if it's something in your brain that controls everything that you do, it's going to be in every facet of your life. Like you said, and when you learn to not let that be a crutch and to kind of work with it, it changes a lot yeah, definitely jasmine.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for coming on thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's been great yeah, and you've talked about so many different things and new experience. It's been really interesting to the audience, so I really enjoyed listening to you as well. Thank you so much. No, thank you. It's been really interesting to be here. Please follow me on all platforms where you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Divining Edmum and, if you got to the end, this is a safe place for project managers, professionals, side hustlers and anybody who's looking to navigate the complexity of being neurodiverse in the workplace and the corporate space. I'll see you next time.
